iDOLM@STER 2!!

[KIRBYSIM]

I have to agree with Scotty on this case. I mean where the hell do people get the idea that having male idols in im@s is a bad idea!?

I personally don't mind the fact that they put Project Jupiter into the game. In fact I think it was a pretty good idea. I sure as hell wouldn't destroy any of my im@s figures over something silly like that. Besides, I value the im@s figures I got. XD

From the same focus group that thought Gal Gun was a good idea.

****

On an unrelated note, looks like the March issue of Gemaga that comes out tomorrow will have a 12-page special on iMAS2. :-O

[Clear Blue]

On an unrelated note, looks like the March issue of Gemaga that comes out tomorrow will have a 12-page special on iMAS2. :-O

O_O
*rushes off to the closest Jap-book shop and orders the magazine*

[Elixir]

There's certainly a very positive way of looking at it, but you're ignoring the part where they want to have sex with these cute and innocent prepubescent girls.

Please bear with me:

While I admire the strong family systems in Japan, there is a downside. The men are at work all the time so mom is in charge of the household and over-intrusive parenting can lead to problems with the child's interpersonal relationships later in life.

The needs of the child to individuate as a separate person are ignored as mom's become over-bearing, creating a nation of men who on the one hand have a strong work ethic, but on the other hand grow an intense resentment of women, as evidenced by Japan's love of depravity in porn. Alternatively, they acquire mother complexes (usually unintentionally, and it isn't a bad thing per se).

Women are objects and one cannot have true intimacy with an object, plus the idea that a woman is a sexual being is threatening, so they end up destroying women with horrendous porn, be it robbing a child of her innocence with the loli stuff (quick digression: my favorite loli titles I spotted at the DVD shop was one with an 8 year old girl called "Sweet, Sweet Candy" and one with an 11 year old called "She's Only 11 Years Old!") or from the tentacle rape and hentai which has evolved into women growing breasts onto their breasts, spewing milk everywhere then being thrown into a blender (or so I hear).

The effect over-bearing parents has on girls is eating disorders and low self-esteem. Put that with a culture of women being silenced and unable to assert their own needs, throw in some passive-aggressiveness (Japanese hate confrontation) and you get a cycle of pain and ungratifying relationships.

I don't mean to speak disparagingly of the people of Japan who I respect with, work with and have lived amongst, and I'm not saying that no one in Japan is having a healthy relationship, I'm sure plenty are, but problems like the lolita thing do not occur in a vacuum. I am amazed everyday by all the stuff I see my elementary school kids doing after school (piano, hockey practice, cram school) but I also see these little girls and little boys with a desperate look in their eyes when they make one mistake and pressures like that have a price.

So how does Namco Bandai fit into all of this? Well, the majority (I would say, for merely a guess, at very least 95%) of iDOLM@STER's fanbase is male. The game itself derives from the eroge (erotic game) visual novel sub-genre, which is usually just text and voice. The popularity of the 360 version came, mostly because of Go My Way and the graphics, which is something that hasn't been seen before.

Fast forward to middle of last year. A PV for the second game comes out, excitement is strong, everyone is loving the new graphics and especially Miki's new hair. Then comes...

Male idols...

Iori isn't playable...

Ritsuko, Ami and Azusa aren't playable... (they're lesser popular in comparison to Iori, but still)

Over the years, people have become associated with these 4 unplayable characters, and what seems like the removal of their content in placement of male dialogue/voice/whathaveyou. There's been nicovideo MADs going on for years, a plethora of fanart all over pixiv and the internet in general, and these characters have been, well, established.

So when a proper sequel is announced, indirectly called "iDOLM@STER 2", you'd expect all of the characters to be playable, along with the additional characters from the PSP and DS versions, right?

People are pissed off because Namco is trying to cash-in, once again, as per usual, to an audience which is not the iDOLM@STER audience. This audience is "female". Then again it really comes as no surprise to me, given Namco's track record with DLC across all of their games. Of course, if the shoe fits, people will wear it. I know I've done so for way too much of L4U's content.

[Katsuyuki-P]

*Really long text cuthere*

So when a proper sequel is announced, indirectly called "iDOLM@STER 2", you'd expect all of the characters to be playable, along with the additional characters from the PSP and DS versions, right?

People are pissed off because Namco is trying to cash-in, once again, as per usual, to an audience which is not the iDOLM@STER audience. This audience is "female". Then again it really comes as no surprise to me, given Namco's track record with DLC across all of their games. Of course, if the shoe fits, people will wear it. I know I've done so for way too much of L4U's content.

Not so much about the DS part. Especially considering the DS girls are from 876 and not 765. Though SP does end with Project Fairy joining 765 (though more rejoining or such on Miki's part).

I'm kind of curious as to whose post this is you're responding to though, Elixir. Perhaps I'll find out soon enough.

I know I'm not really the brightest of people sometimes, but I can't really see what the Japanese lifestyle which the unfortunate implications and then going into stuff about hentai and then somehow ending with Namco trying to aim at a different audience. Somehow I get the feeling that the begining bits of your argument and the end don't really match up.

Unless someone can explain it in a... simpler way. Geh.

On another note, I'm calling bull3&*t on Azusa, Ami, and Ritsuko being not as popular! =P

Edit: Apologies if I sounded like an ass there, but I really don't get what you're... you know, getting at. Your argument gets a little... lost if you add supporting details that do not appear to be related to the main argument. Sorry.

[Elixir]

I guess I'll have to dumb it down. I didn't want to, but okay.

Basically, the way Japanese view females heavily reflects on influence, from a consumer standpoint. The acquisition and "ownership" of females is very tempting. The last 20 years have seen fashions come and go, but the loli boom has been the most prominent. iM@S practically has every fetish under the sun, and widens it even further with accessories like glasses, cat ears and stuff like that. Even the characters are catering to specific types. Tsundere, sophisticated, attention whore, twins, tomboy, poor girl, etc etc.

This all combined with a game that hasn't really been seen before, a hybrid between visual novel, rhythm game, and online competition really sold the console version. Word of mouth really helped as well, actually I know a guy who didn't play games for over 10 years and only got back into it after seeing an iM@S kiosk playing Go My Way.

A good majority of iM@S's fanbase are male, and this is evidently a game directed towards males alone. So what place do male idols have?

Male idols are, from what I can see, are completely unwanted. Extra used disc space. They don't cater to the fanbase. They've removed (or didn't bother to create) the routes of idols which were previously playable, and within the timespan between the original game's release and the sequel, they've released other games with other idols which will not be making an appearance.

I can understand the DS characters not being in. Hell they pretty much dismissed Dearly Stars and fired the guy who created it, if that doesn't say something I don't know what will. But despite this, they have still established fans and fans of prior iM@S games have changed their favourites to DS characters. I can think of at least 2 different friends that are disappointed that Ryo is not in the sequel.

There was also a petition to remove the male idols from the game, but obviously, Namco's too proud to have them removed. Namco is also guilty of doing this to the western Tales Of fanbase. Establish fans, then ignore them.

So, to sum it up: male characters have little to no place in a male's game. Sorry if my English is a little flaky. This is the only conclusion that makes sense to me. Otherwise, I don't understand the backlash either.

[TweenDoriru]

There was also a petition to remove the male idols from the game, but obviously, Namco's too proud to have them removed.

It's not like they were just like "HA HA. YOU HATE THE MALE IDOLS HUH? TOO BAD heehee we're ruining our fanbase :3c"

They spent time and money into making Jupiter; creating the models, coreography for the song (and their general movements when speaking), motion capture for the aforementioned, voice acting, lyrics and music for Alice or Guilty, etc.

Removing Jupiter because their fans are having a fit is a huge loss in money and effort.

I don't think it's really worth throwing a fit over...there are males in the tiny rival-corner of the game. So what?

Also...there is -no way- that the space Jupiter takes up on the disc is anywhere near to what all of RK would've taken up being playable. Jupiter isn't responsible for RK not being useable.

I guess that they do still have all of the costumes and songs for Ritsuko, Iori, Ami, and Azusa, as they can be guests on your stage. What they don't have (presumably) are their morning-greeting option-things, direct 1-on-1 commus, and their voice-clips/etc. for lessons, as well as the random stuff they say at night before you leave for the week.

Jupiter has 1 song, 1 dance. Probably a couple of meetings before face-offs. 1 costume.

They wouldn't have anywhere near the same amount of content. I don't know why Jupiter keeps getting blamed for RK.

[Scotty]

Props to you Elixir, for even attempting to explain a very very difficult train of thought. I kind of see where you're going here, but you're adding drama to where there shouldn't be any.

You need to realize that NBGI is ultimately just a company out to make money. And that's all they ever will be it seems. They do things for a reason. For financial profit.

[Cael K.]

Sometimes I wonder...

The first game I think was a labor of love. The corporate bigwigs haven't tried this before, so they probably don't have next to any orders that needed following. In fact, it probably was someone who thought up of the idea that really had to convince people that this was something worth doing. (As is usually the case for original stuff, I understand.) There was that 2003 trial version they did to gauge interest, and I think the right people were convinced by this, or made to be so, because quite frankly, the entire idea I guess sounded too off the wall and ambitious that no one had a clue as to what it would take to make it popular, if it would take off at all. I mean, the fact that it raked in metric boatloads of yen though DLC came after they figured out this was a veritable gold mine of fandom glee in my opinion.

The second game... sometimes strikes me as a labor of business. People are complaining about the way merchandising is being handled, with not (as) many songs on the MA2 Season 1 CDs, the whole AKB race vote thingie that they just slapped every option on in the end (was this planned or was it last minute damage control?), and a couple of other things... I mean, something just reeks. The entire picture... something's off about it, but the chances of BNGI talking about the internal state of things is about as high as Haruka not falling over at least once per day, so I don't think I'll ever find out. But to me, it seems like someone high on the totem pole only saw it for the billions in astronomical ka-ching it came with, and threw out the Five Impossible Requests at the development team. I just hope that whoever takes the fall, it's the guy barking out the orders rather than the guy who had to comply. I understand I'm speculating about as much as a Wild West prospector, but something inside wants me to pay attention and make sense of everything.

Whatever anyone says, you gotta read your fanbase. You get this wrong, crap like this happens.

I'll be completely and totally honest here: if I feel, after playing the game, that Ryuuguu could have reasonably been put in... I don't think I would be able to describe my mood as particularly happy. Already, I'm quite sure it's not disc space, it may or may not be money, and I hope it's seiyuu scheduling. However, if they come out as DLC on day 1, I know I'll toss down the cash for it, but I honestly don't know if I'll feel like they kicked me in the shins and stole my lunch money or not.

[Maka]

I'm a straight [actually bi, but I lean more towards guys] female and I dislike Jupiter, so that's that. The main reason is shitty timing; "OH HAY 4 IDOLS INCLUDING THE FANSERVICE ONEE-SAMA TYPE AND TSUNDERE ARE UNPLAYABLE. NOW LOOK AT THESE HOT GUYS LOL". If they had revealed them at different times there would be no pissed otakus shattering their discs because WAAAAAAH MEN. Also I don't like how they have a really obvious WE ARE SO MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THE OTHER IDOLS LOOK AT OUR ANGSTY SONG WITH LYRICS ABOUT ANGSTTTTT angle but that's a different topic altogether

It was poor planning on Namco's part. I can totally understand including Jupiter if IMAS had a sizable female fanbase in Japan, but the truth is that 95% of the fanbase is guys who don't want to see bishonen dancing and singing in a sultry way on their tvs. NBGI should know their fanbase better. ESPECIALLY in a series like IMAS where there are so many of the "______ is mai waifu" fans as opposed to other series.

I'm thinking that IMAS will take the same route as Dream Club and make RK unlockable if you do enough stuff that no human alive has any time for, but offer them as DLC at the same time.

[Scotty]

I cannot believe you seriously think NBGI doesn't know its target audience better than you think it should. As if they don't have sales statistics on the products they sell...

NBGI knows who buy their stuff. End of that discussion. No more bringing up that "fanbase" card. It's done.
Will more females buy iM@S now? Sure. Maybe. Perhaps 2 of them. It might fail to bring in girls. But you know what it didn't fail in bringing in? Attention.

And what timing? It would have been inevitable for fans to make such a delusional connection between Jupiter and Ryuugu regardless of when they got announced, it's still in the same game.

How about we wait for the game to come out and find out ourselves if Ryuugu idols are indeed 'playable' or not?

[animagic4u]

Scotty's right.
There's reasons for everything they are doing. We have to wait until the game comes out to know.
I bet it will be a big seller; even if they hate it, the fans will buy it to try it.

[RoninatorMarx]

Was gonna post this last night but my internet died on me:

I have to agree with Scotty on this case. I mean where the hell do people get the idea that having male idols in im@s is a bad idea!?

It's not that it's a bad idea. At least, I don't think so (I wouldn't call it a super awesome idea either). We were all just not at the right mood at that time, and for those fans, they didn't took it so well. It was simply the matter of giving the right info at the worst possible time (explanation below). But basically those fans aren't thinking clearly.

"My *insert idol here* will no longer be a virgin!"

lol

As much as this is funny, the 'truth' is actually farther than this. (I'll explain below)

Eh, not sure why the big reaction from the Japanese fanbase. It's totally unawesome. There are plenty of males in the game before Project Jupiter showed up anyway. Granted, most of them are silhouettes, but they are still male!

Well, none of them are idols, I mean like, idols with CG, voice-acting and a role in the plot that nearly equals to that of the Producer (and to a lesser extent, the company presidents). The deal is, the male idols serve as potential love interest to your idols, just like the producer (A-K-A you!). The angry half of the Japanese fanbase is aware of that fact too, and (assuming it's true) they know that Jupiter can (and probably will) 'take them away' from the player. And that's half the reason why part of the fanbase are mad at them.

The other half? They're blaming Jupiter for Ami, Azusa, Iori and Ricchan's removal and the formation of RK. Though I can probably prove that them not having to be removed while Jupiter existing IS indeed possible, the fanbase probably did not think straight at that time, hence they thought they were removed to give way for Jupiter, and proceeded with the hate anyway. Let's face it: The way they made their entrance and the events before it, it was as if Namco was bashing its very fanbase (of which I am not sure of. Yet).

So why did people still pre-order it? Have you forgotten about Nowano's comic somewhere in this thread. Bottom-line: We're suckers. We'd still like iM@S regardless of the changes made, so we'd go along the flow just because we're fans. Also, they're rivals. They're the type of in-game people the players are gonna hate, so they'll be more motivated to wipe the floor with their cliche bishounen hairstyle. (Well, I'm not sure about Shouta's, but you get the picture)

There was also a petition to remove the male idols from the game, but obviously, Namco's too proud to have them removed.

I guess I can say Namco's proud. But there's a logical reason as to why they didn't remove Jupiter, despite the petition: They already planned that Jupiter would be in there from the start, and by the time Namco announced them, the game is almost, if not, complete. Assuming that they do decide to remove Jupiter, it gonna take them, I'm guessing, at least a few months to try and fill up the gaps that was occupied by them. And if they have the Cartridge/Game Disk/whatever-you-call-it already made, they're gonna have to call all of them back, and then not only will Namco spend even more money making new discs (the ones without them), that will push the release date further, causing even more backlash from the fans.

And even if they did, would that mean that they'll remove RK and get the four back into to being producable?

Like I said: Those fans aren't thinking straight. They probably think it's just as easy as tearing a page from a book, where you can probably guess from my explanation that it's not.

==================

The main reason is shitty timing; "OH HAY 4 IDOLS INCLUDING THE FANSERVICE ONEE-SAMA TYPE AND TSUNDERE ARE UNPLAYABLE. NOW LOOK AT THESE HOT GUYS LOL". If they had revealed them at different times there would be no pissed otakus shattering their discs because WAAAAAAH MEN. Also I don't like how they have a really obvious WE ARE SO MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THE OTHER IDOLS LOOK AT OUR ANGSTY SONG WITH LYRICS ABOUT ANGSTTTTT angle but that's a different topic altogether

Girl, I like the way you think. I could picture some hotshot claiming from Namco being this.

But seriously......

Ufufu... Either way, male or female, doesn't matter, they'll all be the same squished under my foot. May they all be crushed by my mighty producing power! 765 forever! *dramatic pose*

This.....This is the same behavior everyone of those angry fanboys should have. Jupiter are rivals. Rivals are meant to be beaten by the heroes/heroines. And guess what? They're male. They obviously got hated by the players. I bet Namco actually made them to be hated. And if there's people you don't like in the game and they're on the other side of it (talking about Jupiter right now), get motivated. Beat them. Go as far murdering them in the stage if you want to. And you can all justify your actions with, "Hey, they are rivals. Wasn't I supposed to beat them? <insert maniacal laugh here>"

[animagic4u]

But seriously......
This.....This is the same behavior everyone of those angry fanboys should have. Jupiter are rivals. Rivals are meant to be beaten by the heroes/heroines. And guess what? They're male. They obviously got hated by the players. I bet Namco actually made them to be hated. And if there's people you don't like in the game and they're on the other side of it (talking about Jupiter right now), get motivated. Beat them. Go as far murdering them in the stage if you want to. And you can all justify your actions with, "Hey, they are rivals. Wasn't I supposed to beat them? <insert maniacal laugh here>"

Precisely!
With that said, isn't it obvious that Namco is actually even further targeting the male audience?
Ladies would much rather see Jupiter win which is obviously not the point of the game.

[Clear Blue]

Ladies would much rather see Jupiter win which is obviously not the point of the game.

But still, idols are idols, Jupiter should get as much attention, just the girls from 765Pro.

[TweenDoriru]

But still, idols are idols, Jupiter should get as much attention, just the girls from 765Pro.

When the fanbase loathes them, I highly doubt they'd get the same amount of attention...

besides, given that they are rivals, they're getting about as much coverage as they should (well...less, actually, since the Japanese fanbase is cracking their merch over it).

But, I think we've seen most of what's even going to become of Jupiter. If it was enough to net female fans, they'd be playing it for the wrong reason. I'm straight, and sure, I do like Jupiter. But I'm playing it with the intent to produce my female idol groups :1 I don't know if I'd want to produce men. That takes my cutesy-dressup-sing-and-dance factor out of the game XDD