Romanization Standardization

[Nanashi]

So that would mean, keeping in mind that most of the intended audience's understanding of Japanese is limited, if we want a clear and uniform standard, always separating would be a safe bet, correct?

On a sidenote, about the chigau kamo, is かも when used like this always considered one 'unit' of speech (seeing how you didn't separate them)? Just curious.

[Harrason]

So that would mean, keeping in mind that most of the intended audience's understanding of Japanese is limited, if we want a clear and uniform standard, always separating would be a safe bet, correct?

On a sidenote, about the chigau kamo, is かも when used like this always considered one 'unit' of speech (seeing how you didn't separate them)? Just curious.

Well, yes, that would be right. The only problem is that after being exposed to these for a long time, they will rage.

And to your second question, yes. Like combined verbs, these particles are also combined to give a different meaning. Mo is usually used as a form of "I do this, you do this too" sentence, though similar usages have came about as well. Ka is usually used to implicate a question. However, when together, Kamo, while similar to Ka in the way such that it implicates a question, but it dictates a possibility. Usually when used, sentences would mean "It might not even", "Maybe" and "What if?". In that sense, kamo isn't 2 different particles together, its an entire particle itself. In fact, "Desu" is a good example of an ending particle, though su is also used by some people such as "良いすね" instead of "良いですね". The only difference between them is su is quite informal.

[Laburey]

Well, yes, that would be right. The only problem is that after being exposed to these for a long time, they will rage.

Mo is usually used as a form of "I do this, you do this too" sentence, though similar usages have came about as well. Ka is usually used to implicate a question. However, when together, Kamo, while similar to Ka in the way such that it implicates a question, but it dictates a possibility. Usually when used, sentences would mean "It might not even", "Maybe" and "What if?". In that sense, kamo isn't 2 different particles together, its an entire particle itself.

Ooh, you know your stuff, Harrason. It's a similar situation with ka/na/kana, isnt't it?

It's true that separated end particles could get annoying after a while. But to decide on something and be consequent, it may be best to do as nanashi suggests.

[Trance Blossom]

In my opinion, space-less words may look more like japanese, but they're very intimidating to look at and, in especially difficult cases, hard to read all at once. And especially since we're dealing with songs mainly, we want to be kind to the people reading them (or singing them).

For this reason I believe we should have spaces between particles and such to break up the big words.

[Laburey]

It seems that a consensus has been reached. At least about the spacing question in general.

[Nanashi]

Yes, looks like it. For the time being, I'll simply change the questions in my first post here that (to the best of my knowledge) have been settled to answers to show what we've agreed on so far. Would that do until making that standardization wiki page?

EDIT: Does that mean we've also agreed on kawarun darou over kawarundarou to prevent words from becoming to long?

[Harrason]

Ooh, you know your stuff, Harrason. It's a similar situation with ka/na/kana, isnt't it?

It's true that separated end particles could get annoying after a while. But to decide on something and be consequent, it may be best to do as nanashi suggests.

You flatter me. But honestly i've been learning it for 3 years so to be honest the progress is actually very slow 

Yes, looks like it. For the time being, I'll simply change the questions in my first post here that (to the best of my knowledge) have been settled to answers to show what we've agreed on so far. Would that do until making that standardization wiki page?

EDIT: Does that mean we've also agreed on kawarun darou over kawarundarou to prevent words from becoming to long?

From what i see, yes.

[Nanashi]

Since there don't appear to be any objections to it I'm going to purge the wiki of the word Productions a few moments from now...

Then there's this issue which I'd like to bring up once more:
I think we've agreed that hiragana long vowels should be romanized aa, ei, uu, ou and ii, but what about katakana ー ? In my opinion ボーカル BOUKARU is just silly, leaving the options of BO-KARU and BOOKARU. (I prefer the latter myself)

[Harrason]

Since there don't appear to be any objections to it I'm going to purge the wiki of the word Productions a few moments from now...

Then there's this issue which I'd like to bring up once more:
I think we've agreed that hiragana long vowels should be romanized aa, ei, uu, ou and ii, but what about katakana ー ? In my opinion ボーカル BOUKARU is just silly, leaving the options of BO-KARU and BOOKARU. (I prefer the latter myself)

I'll take the latter, just like i always do for any other Katakana translation i ever do.

[Nanashi]

Here's something else for discussion: this just crossed my mind when I viewed the wiki's song category page to check which pages would need moving, but English in song titles should be an exception to the English-in-katakana romanization standard, shouldn't it? Everybody's been using Agent forever, so if we suddenly started using EEJENTO Yoru wo Yuku it'd just be weird right?

And another thing: Watashi ha Idol or Watashi ha Idol ♥  ?

(Going with ha > wa since a 2/3 majority said ha in this thread) ...out of 3 opinions >_>

[Laburey]

Here's something else for discussion: this just crossed my mind when I viewed the wiki's song category page to check which pages would need moving, but English in song titles should be an exception to the English-in-katakana romanization standard, shouldn't it? Everybody's been using Agent forever, so if we suddenly started using EEJENTO Yoru wo Yuku it'd just be weird right?

Personally, I would have used EEJENTO, but as you say, titles could be translated according to a different standard if that's more convenient.

"And another thing: Watashi ha Idol or Watashi ha Idol ♥  ?"
We never decided on that "weird punctuation" question, but I think it's better without the heart now.

BTW, I am going to post a "2nd round" of opinions later, on those questions still w/o consensus. If there's still interest in discussing them...

[Nanashi]

BTW, I am going to post a "2nd round" of opinions later, on those questions still w/o consensus. If there's still interest in discussing them...

Of course there is. I think I'll do the same.

[Laburey]

How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?
From other post: "In my opinion ボーカル BOUKARU is just silly, leaving the options of BO-KARU and BOOKARU. (I prefer the latter myself)"

Yeah, OO is better. Does this question apply to the rare use of ー in hiragana as well?


Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
Should を be romanized as wo or o?
Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?

I prefer wa, o, e in writing but it's not really important. As long as we're consistent, any choices are fine with me.


Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
Example: 先輩 : senpai VS sempai

I still think an m should be used where apropriate. Users without knowledge of Japanese might try to force out an n if it says n.


When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol. What should we do in these cases?

I've nothing new to add here. Put up all different versions, there's no lack of space in a wiki.


Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
Example: そっと目を伏せて　忘れるわ: sotto me wo fusete wasureru wa VS sotto me wo fusete  wasureru wa

I think it's natural to use it. It also makes it easier to see how the Japanese and romaji lyrics correspond to each other.


Should non-existent punctuation/symbols be carried over to the romanization or omitted?
Example: 夢の中で　また☆*:包んで*☆: yume no naka de mata ☆*:tsutsunde*☆: VS yume no naka de mata tsutsunde

It's true the star is sort of useless, as far as I know it has no official meaning. Same with the heart. What other signs are we talking about here?


Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?

No, there were good arguments made against doing it.


Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?

Since we decided on writing English loanwords in katakana as romaji and not English, I don't think there's any need to change the words originally in English to make them stand out or anything.


If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
Example: Shooting Fire! : Shooting Fire! VS Shooting fire!

It must be cases where it's very hard to determine whether it's incorrect or not. Maybe just leave it as it is.


Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?

I think it's natural to do that. Makes it easier to read.


If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?

I don't really have a strong opinion here.


What if English in the official lyrics goes against common capitalization rules?
Example: arcadia
Example: It's livE. It's eviL.

The second example looks strange to me, so I would like it changed. Not sure about the first one.

[Procyon]

Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
Example: 先輩 : senpai VS sempai

I still think an m should be used where apropriate. Users without knowledge of Japanese might try to force out an n if it says n.

This is true in spoken Japanese, but when sung the -n really sounds different.

And about ボーカル, this can be sung as BO, UU, KA, RU. That means BOUKARU is not that silly.

I think most people who want to sing the songs don't necessarily know Japanese but are proficient in singing romaji. That means indicating -n and -ou -ei and such is important for them.

[Laburey]

This is true in spoken Japanese, but when sung the -n really sounds different.

Ah, now I'm confused. What I meant with "where apropriate" was that it should be spelled as it sounds. If it's sung as n then it should be written with n.

This difference between between singing and speaking you mention, is it always the case?