Community > Wiki discussion
Romanization Standardization
Trance Blossom:
I propose (or rather, proposed on the i discussion page) that we need a standardization for romanizing lyrics, as there is little to no consistency between songs.
Specifically, where spaces should be, what certain characters should be (o or wo, e or he, for example), and how to format English words (Taiyou no JEALOUSY).
Nanashi:
Like on that talk page, I still very, very strongly agree with this. :o
In fact, to make this even more concrete than Trance Blossom already did, here's a list of all the romanization issues we need to agree on that I could think of at the moment.
(Not trying to hijack this thread, just making clear what issues the wiki is currently inconsistent on and therefore need discussion. The answers to some issues might seem obvious. As the wiki proves, they are not.)
Long vowels
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
Consensus: aa, ei, ii, ou, uu.
There are some obvious exceptions (such as おおきい: ookii, and not oukii...)
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?
Particles
Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
Consensus: ha
EDIT: Oops. It should've said ha...
Should を be romanized as wo or o?
Consensus: wo
Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?
Consensus: he
ん
Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
Example: 先輩 : senpai VS sempai
Consensus: n
Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel?
Consensus: yes
Example:
記念: kinen
禁煙: kin'en NOT kinen
Multiple readings
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol.
Example: 行く: iku & yuku
What should we do in these cases?
Consensus: simply go with one and note different readings per idol on the song page (e.g. above or underneath the lyrics table)
Spacing
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space?
Consensus: Yes, in order to keep the romaji easy to read (and understand) for those with a limited knowledge of the Japanese language.
Example:永遠の夏を 手に入れたんだ: eien no natsu wo te ni ... NOT eienno natsuwo teni ...
However, in this would break up what could be considered a single unit of meaning, no space is used.
Example: いつまでも: itsumade mo NOT itsu made mo or itsumade mo
Should sentence ending particles be preceded by a space or not?
Consensus: Yes, in order to keep the romaji easy to read (and understand) for those with a limited knowledge of the Japanese language.
Example: 分かってるよ: wakatteru yo NOT wakatteruyo
Example: だよね: da yo ne NOT dayone or dayo ne
However, particles that gain a new meaning when combined, will not be separated.
Example:ちょっと違うかも: chotto chigau kamo NOT chotto chigau ka mo
Example:なにが出るかな: nani ga deru kana NOT nani ga deru ka na
Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space?
Consensus: No.
Example: だけど: dakedo NOT da kedo
Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space?
Consensus: No, as the meaning of the combined verb is different from each of the verbs apart.
Example: 抜け出して: nukedashite NOT nuke dashite
Example: 振り切り昇る: furikirinoboru NOT furikiri noboru or furi kiri noboru
Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space?
Example: いってしまった: itteshimatta VS itte shimatta
Consensus: yes
Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space?
Consensus: No.
Example: 超えてく: koeteku NOT koete ku
Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
Example: そっと目を伏せて 忘れるわ: sotto me wo fusete wasureru wa VS sotto me wo fusete wasureru wa
Consensus: yesIrrelevant, the wiki doesn't like it...
Should the explanative の shortened to ん be separated from the copula after it and the word before it?
Consensus: The 'n' belongs with the word before it. The copula will be separated from that with a space to prevent words from becoming too long.
Example: 変わるんだろう: kawarun darou
Example: そうなんですか: sou nan desu ka
Punctuation
Should ？！。、 be shown in the romanization or not?
Consensus: These will be romanized ? ! . ,
Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all?
Consensus: It will be romanized as " "
Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all?
Consensus: It will be romanized as ...
Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
Example: Shooting Fire!!! : Shooting Fire!!! VS Shooting Fire!
Consensus: Original punctuation will be preserved.
Should non-existent punctuation/symbols be carried over to the romanization or omitted?
Example: 夢の中で また☆*:包んで*☆: yume no naka de mata ☆*:tsutsunde*☆: VS yume no naka de mata tsutsunde
Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages
Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Consensus: The Japanese follow the katakana, and therefore it will be romanized as usual Japanese. If it is meant to be spelt like actual English, the lyrics writers will usually write it in English.
Example: ミラクル スタートスター！: MIRAKURU SUTAATO SUTAA! and not MIRACLE START STAR!
(Please ignore long vowel and capitalization issues in this example)
If it should be converted back to English, how should 'English' that does not correspond directly with an existing English word be handled?
Consensus: No longer relevant.
Example: ヒスってもしかたない
Example: テレビ
If it should be converted back to English, does this apply to English written in hiragana?
Consensus: No longer relevant.
Example: ああゆうれでぃ？: aa yuu redi? VS are you ready?
Capitalization
Currently, English (or French, etc.) words shown in katakana will be presented in capital letters in the romanization.
But what about:
Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?
Consensus: No
Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters?
Consensus: No.
Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?
Example: 空の 色が変わってゆく Daylight: sora no iro ga kawatte yuku DAYLIGHT VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku daylight VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku Daylight
Consensus: Preserved
If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
Example: Shooting Fire! : Shooting Fire! VS Shooting fire!
Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?
Consensus: yes
If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
Consensus: yes?
Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
Consensus: Yes, in general they will like they would be in English. However, capitalization is not desirable when the official lyrics present a name in lower case.
What if English in the official lyrics goes against common capitalization rules?
Example: arcadia
Example: It's livE. It's eviL.
Pro
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
Consensus: Official romanizations should be used where possible.
Laburey:
Just to get things going, I put in how I use romaji in my stories and such. I have not much experience with romanisation of song lyrics, though. And this is my own standard, so just take it for what it is. :)
Long vowels
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?
This is not easy, but I use aa, ei, ii, ou, uu, myself.
Particles
wa, o, e
ん
Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound? The latter.
Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel? I prefer not to, but I can see the necessity of doing it.
Multiple readings
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol. What should we do in these cases?
Add a clarification at the top of the page, and then simply put up one version for each idol.
Spacing
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space? No.
Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space? No.
Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space? No.
Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space? No.
Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space? Not sure in general, but in your example, no.
Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics? Yes.
Punctuation
Should ？！。、 be shown in the romanization or not? I simply convert to ? ! . ,
Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all? " "
Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all? ...
Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
Too much will be lost if it's omitted, IMO.
Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages
Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Romanised as usual, since if it's meant to be English it is already written in English in the original lyrics.
Capitalization
Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters? Yes.
Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters? No ... I think.
Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved? Capitalised, or at least marked somehow.
Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not? Yes.
If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
Not easy, but perhaps to use the same rules as in English is most straightforward.
Pro
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
Names should always be left unchanged if possible, so no s. And no u in Ryo. ^~
If BanNam provides English (Engrish) or romaji spellings, use those.
Well, I hope my input is of some use to you.
Nanashi:
The more input the better, if you ask me. If a lot of people turn out to agree on a certain point, that makes their opinion the standard, doesn't it? Or at least I assume democracy is the way to go here.
With that said, I forgot to actually post my own opinion before... :-[ So here it is:
Long vowels
--- Quote ---How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
--- End quote ---
I usually go for aa, ei, ii, ou and uu as well. (Save exceptions like 炎 honoo)
--- Quote ---How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?
--- End quote ---
Aa, ee, ii, oo and uu, regardless of whether it's Japanese or kana-ized English.
Particles
--- Quote ---Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
--- End quote ---
I prefer ha, to distinguish it from the sentence ending wa.
--- Quote ---Should を be romanized as wo or o?
--- End quote ---
Wo. After all, some speakers actually pronounce it that way.
--- Quote ---Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?
--- End quote ---
He. Same reason.
ん
--- Quote ---Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
--- End quote ---
I prefer n. Unless you force it, it'll automatically end up sounding like an m anyway in words like senpai.
--- Quote ---Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel?
--- End quote ---
Yes. kinen looks like 3 syllables while kin'en shows that it actually has 4. Some people may want to use romanized lyrics for fandubs, and getting the amount of syllables right is important when singing.
Multiple readings
--- Quote ---When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol.
What should we do in these cases?
--- End quote ---
I agree with Laburey. I'd rather put the note underneath the lyrics table though. ;)
Spacing
--- Quote ---Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space?
--- End quote ---
I prefer to do this, since not doing it could make it look like they're actually one word, which might sometimes be confusing.
(E.g. sunaga kakatta atashino hohowo compared to suna ga kakatta atashi no hoho wo )
--- Quote ---Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space?
--- End quote ---
No.
--- Quote ---Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space?
--- End quote ---
No. The meaning of the combined verb may be different from the sum of the separate verbs.
--- Quote ---Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space?
--- End quote ---
Yes. After all, as soon as it becomes: [verb in -te form] + [adverb] + [verb], they'll be separated as well.
--- Quote ---Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space?
--- End quote ---
No.
--- Quote ---Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
--- End quote ---
I don't know, in fact I'm not consistent at this myself, so I'll listen to what others have to say...
Punctuation
--- Quote ---Should ？！。、 be shown in the romanization or not?
--- End quote ---
Agreed with Laburey. ? ! . , are fine.
--- Quote ---Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all?
--- End quote ---
Pass. I can't think of a good reason against either. :-\
--- Quote ---Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
--- End quote ---
I believe a romanization is mainly about showing sounds, not meanings, so I don't see any problem if meaning is lost by omitting *☆:*☆: and such. Although they should come back in the translation, imo.
Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages
--- Quote ---Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
--- End quote ---
Romanized as usual. Converting it back to English can be left to the translation. Besides, English pronunciation might be unwanted because of word-play. (E.g. Suta→to Suta→ plays with レディ sounding like both ready and lady)
Capitalization
--- Quote ---Currently, English (or French, etc.) words shown in katakana will be presented in capital letters in the romanization.
But what about:
Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?
--- End quote ---
I think they shouldn't be. Often English is written in hiragana to show that the speaker doesn't really understand it or doesn't know how to pronounce it properly, and I think that effect is best simulated by showing it in lower case like normal romanized Japanese.
--- Quote ---Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters?
--- End quote ---
No.
--- Quote ---Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?
--- End quote ---
Preserved, since that usually means capitalizing only the first letter, so it stands apart from other English lyrics that were originally in kana.
--- Quote ---If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
--- End quote ---
Yes.
--- Quote ---Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?
--- End quote ---
I think this is difficult to decide on. I prefer not to, as the romanization simulates the Japanese lyrics, which don't really indicate the start of a new line or sentence.
--- Quote ---If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
--- End quote ---
No. Same as above question.
--- Quote ---Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
--- End quote ---
This is difficult because the official lyrics might not do this (e.g. arcadia without capitalization), but I do believe they should. Mainly because almost anyone does it. Not capitalizing a name would probably even look disrespectful.
Pro
--- Quote ---The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
--- End quote ---
Official romanizations confuse me sometimes. Why is it Shijou and not Shijo when it is Ryo and not Ryou? Even so I believe we should stick to them.
Oh, and there's another spacing issue I forgot about before: the explanative の shortened to ん.
Put differently: 変わるんだろう: kawarundarou, kawaru ndarou, or kawaru n darou
I personally prefer the first, but that's only because the other two look unnatural to me.
Laburey:
--- Quote from: Nanashi on July 16, 2009, 05:57:36 pm ---I think this is difficult to decide on. I prefer not to, as the romanization simulates the Japanese lyrics, which don't really indicate the start of a new line or sentence.
--- End quote ---
Aha, I thought what was meant by new line coincided with the original. If not, it's probably better not to capitalise, as you say.
--- Quote from: Nanashi on July 16, 2009, 05:57:36 pm ---Oh, and there's another spacing issue I forgot about before: the explanative の shortened to ん.
Put differently: 変わるんだろう: kawarundarou, kawaru ndarou, or kawaru n darou
I personally prefer the first, but that's only because the other two look unnatural to me.
--- End quote ---
At least the middle alternative seems wrong to me. I'd go with the first one, too.
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