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Author Topic: Romanization Standardization  (Read 18653 times)

Trance Blossom

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Romanization Standardization
« on: July 16, 2009, 03:20:42 am »
I propose (or rather, proposed on the i discussion page) that we need a standardization for romanizing lyrics, as there is little to no consistency between songs.

Specifically, where spaces should be, what certain characters should be (o or wo, e or he, for example), and how to format English words (Taiyou no JEALOUSY).

Nanashi

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 12:19:17 pm »
Like on that talk page, I still very, very strongly agree with this.  :o

In fact, to make this even more concrete than Trance Blossom already did, here's a list of all the romanization issues we need to agree on that I could think of at the moment.

(Not trying to hijack this thread, just making clear what issues the wiki is currently inconsistent on and therefore need discussion. The answers to some issues might seem obvious. As the wiki proves, they are not.)



Long vowels
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
Consensus: aa, ei, ii, ou, uu.
There are some obvious exceptions (such as おおきい: ookii, and not oukii...)

How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?


Particles
Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
Consensus: ha
EDIT: Oops. It should've said ha...

Should を be romanized as wo or o?
Consensus: wo

Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?
Consensus: he



Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
Example: 先輩 : senpai VS sempai
Consensus: n

Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel?
Consensus: yes
Example:
記念: kinen
禁煙: kin'en NOT kinen



Multiple readings
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol.
Example: 行く: iku & yuku
What should we do in these cases?
Consensus: simply go with one and note different readings per idol on the song page (e.g. above or underneath the lyrics table)


Spacing
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space?
Consensus: Yes, in order to keep the romaji easy to read (and understand) for those with a limited knowledge of the Japanese language.
Example:永遠の夏を 手に入れたんだ: eien no natsu wo te ni ... NOT eienno natsuwo teni ...
However, in  this would break up what could be considered a single unit of meaning, no space is used.
Example: いつまでも: itsumade mo NOT itsu made mo or itsumade mo

Should sentence ending particles be preceded by a space or not?
Consensus: Yes, in order to keep the romaji easy to read (and understand) for those with a limited knowledge of the Japanese language.
Example: 分かってるよ: wakatteru yo NOT wakatteruyo
Example: だよね: da yo ne NOT dayone or dayo ne
However, particles that gain a new meaning when combined, will not be separated.
Example:ちょっと違うかも: chotto chigau kamo NOT chotto chigau ka mo
Example:なにが出るかな: nani ga deru kana NOT nani ga deru ka na

Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space?
Consensus: No.
Example: だけど: dakedo NOT da kedo

Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space?
Consensus: No, as the meaning of the combined verb is different from each of the verbs apart.
Example: 抜け出して: nukedashite NOT nuke dashite
Example: 振り切り昇る: furikirinoboru NOT furikiri noboru or furi kiri noboru

Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space?
Example: いってしまった: itteshimatta VS itte shimatta
Consensus: yes

Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space?
Consensus: No.
Example: 超えてく: koeteku NOT koete ku

Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
Example: そっと目を伏せて 忘れるわ: sotto me wo fusete wasureru wa VS sotto me wo fusete  wasureru wa
Consensus: yes
Irrelevant, the wiki doesn't like it...

Should the explanative の shortened to ん be separated from the copula after it and the word before it?
Consensus: The 'n' belongs with the word before it. The copula will be separated from that with a space to prevent words from becoming too long.
Example: 変わるんだろう: kawarun darou
Example: そうなんですか: sou nan desu ka



Punctuation
Should ?!。、 be shown in the romanization or not?
Consensus: These will be romanized ? ! . ,

Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all?
Consensus: It will be romanized as " "

Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all?
Consensus: It will be romanized as ...

Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
Example: Shooting Fire!!! : Shooting Fire!!! VS Shooting Fire!
Consensus: Original punctuation will be preserved.

Should non-existent punctuation/symbols be carried over to the romanization or omitted?
Example: 夢の中で また☆*:包んで*☆: yume no naka de mata ☆*:tsutsunde*☆: VS yume no naka de mata tsutsunde


Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages

Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Consensus: The Japanese follow the katakana, and therefore it will be romanized as usual Japanese. If it is meant to be spelt like actual English, the lyrics writers will usually write it in English.
Example: ミラクル スタートスター!: MIRAKURU SUTAATO SUTAA! and not MIRACLE START STAR!
(Please ignore long vowel and capitalization issues in this example)

If it should be converted back to English, how should 'English' that does not correspond directly with an existing English word be handled?
Consensus: No longer relevant.
Example: ヒスってもしかたない
Example: テレビ

If it should be converted back to English, does this apply to English written in hiragana?
Consensus: No longer relevant.
Example: ああゆうれでぃ?: aa yuu redi? VS are you ready?


Capitalization
Currently, English (or French, etc.) words shown in katakana will be presented in capital letters in the romanization.
But what about:

Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?
Consensus: No

Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters?
Consensus: No.

Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?
Example: 空の 色が変わってゆく Daylight: sora no iro ga kawatte yuku DAYLIGHT VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku daylight VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku Daylight
Consensus: Preserved

If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
Example: Shooting Fire! : Shooting Fire! VS Shooting fire!

Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?
Consensus: yes

If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
Consensus: yes?

Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
Consensus: Yes, in general they will like they would be in English. However, capitalization is not desirable when the official lyrics present a name in lower case.

What if English in the official lyrics goes against common capitalization rules?
Example: arcadia
Example: It's livE. It's eviL.

Pro
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
Consensus: Official romanizations should be used where possible.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:02:17 am by Nanashi »

Laburey

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2009, 02:13:12 pm »
Just to get things going, I put in how I use romaji in my stories and such. I have not much experience with romanisation of song lyrics, though. And this is my own standard, so just take it for what it is.  :)

Long vowels
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?

This is not easy, but I use aa, ei, ii, ou, uu, myself.


Particles
wa, o, e



Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound? The latter.
Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel? I prefer not to, but I can see the necessity of doing it.


Multiple readings
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol. What should we do in these cases?

Add a clarification at the top of the page, and then simply put up one version for each idol.


Spacing
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space? No.

Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space? No.

Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space? No.

Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space? No.

Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space? Not sure in general, but in your example, no.

Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics? Yes.


Punctuation
Should ?!。、 be shown in the romanization or not? I simply convert to ? ! . ,
Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all? " "
Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all? ...

Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
Too much will be lost if it's omitted, IMO.


Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages

Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Romanised as usual, since if it's meant to be English it is already written in English in the original lyrics.


Capitalization

Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters? Yes.
Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters? No ... I think.

Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved? Capitalised, or at least marked somehow.

Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not? Yes.

If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
Not easy, but perhaps to use the same rules as in English is most straightforward.


Pro
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
Names should always be left unchanged if possible, so no s. And no u in Ryo. ^~
If BanNam provides English (Engrish) or romaji spellings, use those.


Well, I hope my input is of some use to you.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 02:18:01 pm by Laburey »

Nanashi

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2009, 05:57:36 pm »
The more input the better, if you ask me. If a lot of people turn out to agree on a certain point, that makes their opinion the standard, doesn't it? Or at least I assume democracy is the way to go here.

With that said, I forgot to actually post my own opinion before... :-[ So here it is:


Long vowels
Quote
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
I usually go for aa, ei, ii, ou and uu as well. (Save exceptions like 炎 honoo)
Quote
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?
Aa, ee, ii, oo and uu, regardless of whether it's Japanese or kana-ized English.

Particles
Quote
Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
I prefer ha, to distinguish it from the sentence ending wa.
Quote
Should を be romanized as wo or o?
Wo. After all, some speakers actually pronounce it that way.
Quote
Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?
He. Same reason.


Quote
Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
I prefer n. Unless you force it, it'll automatically end up sounding like an m anyway in words like senpai.
Quote
Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel?
Yes. kinen looks like 3 syllables while kin'en shows that it actually has 4. Some people may want to use romanized lyrics for fandubs, and getting the amount of syllables right is important when singing.

Multiple readings
Quote
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol.

What should we do in these cases?
I agree with Laburey. I'd rather put the note underneath the lyrics table though.  ;)


Spacing
Quote
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space?
I prefer to do this, since not doing it could make it look like they're actually one word, which might sometimes be confusing.

(E.g. sunaga kakatta atashino hohowo compared to suna ga kakatta atashi no hoho wo  )
Quote
Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space?
No.

Quote
Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space?
No. The meaning of the combined verb may be different from the sum of the separate verbs.

Quote
Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space?
Yes. After all, as soon as it becomes: [verb in -te form] + [adverb] + [verb], they'll be separated as well.

Quote
Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space?
No.

Quote
Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
I don't know, in fact I'm not consistent at this myself, so I'll listen to what others have to say...


Punctuation
Quote
Should ?!。、 be shown in the romanization or not?

Agreed with Laburey. ? ! . , are fine.
Quote
Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all?

Quote
Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or ot shown at all?
Pass. I can't think of a good reason against either.  :-\

Quote
Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
I believe a romanization is mainly about showing sounds, not meanings, so I don't see any problem if meaning is lost by omitting *☆:*☆: and such. Although they should come back in the translation, imo.


Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages
Quote
Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Romanized as usual. Converting it back to English can be left to the translation. Besides, English pronunciation might be unwanted because of word-play. (E.g. Suta→to Suta→ plays with レディ sounding like both ready and lady)



Capitalization
Quote
Currently, English (or French, etc.) words shown in katakana will be presented in capital letters in the romanization.
But what about:

Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?
I think they shouldn't be. Often English is written in hiragana to show that the speaker doesn't really understand it or doesn't know how to pronounce it properly, and I think that effect is best simulated by showing it in lower case like normal romanized Japanese.

Quote
Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters?
No.

Quote
Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?
Preserved, since that usually means capitalizing only the first letter, so it stands apart from other English lyrics that were originally in kana.

Quote
If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
Yes.

Quote
Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?
I think this is difficult to decide on. I prefer not to, as the romanization simulates the Japanese lyrics, which don't really indicate the start of a new line or sentence.

Quote
If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
No. Same as above question.

Quote
Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
This is difficult because the official lyrics might not do this (e.g. arcadia without capitalization), but I do believe they should. Mainly because almost anyone does it. Not capitalizing a name would probably even look disrespectful.

Pro
Quote
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
Official romanizations confuse me sometimes. Why is it Shijou and not Shijo when it is Ryo and not Ryou? Even so I believe we should stick to them.


Oh, and there's another spacing issue I forgot about before: the explanative の shortened to ん.
Put differently: 変わるんだろう: kawarundarou, kawaru ndarou, or kawaru n darou
I personally prefer the first, but that's only because the other two look unnatural to me.

Laburey

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2009, 06:45:36 pm »
I think this is difficult to decide on. I prefer not to, as the romanization simulates the Japanese lyrics, which don't really indicate the start of a new line or sentence.

Aha, I thought what was meant by new line coincided with the original. If not, it's probably better not to capitalise, as you say.

Oh, and there's another spacing issue I forgot about before: the explanative の shortened to ん.
Put differently: 変わるんだろう: kawarundarou, kawaru ndarou, or kawaru n darou
I personally prefer the first, but that's only because the other two look unnatural to me.

At least the middle alternative seems wrong to me. I'd go with the first one, too.

Harrason

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 07:17:07 pm »
Quote
Long vowels
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by an additional vowel character?
How should long vowels be romanized when lengthened by a katakana ー ?

Same here, aa, ei, ii, ou and uu.

Quote
Particles
Should は, when used as a particle, be romanized as ha or wa?
Should を be romanized as wo or o?
Should へ, when used as a particle, be romanized as he or e?

Ha should be used so that viewers would understand that は is used, not わ. It may cause confusion, but that can't be helped, because the Japanese knowledge of the viewer is in question here. Maybe we should create a "Romanization Standardization and Clarifications" page?
Anyway, を as wo, and へ as he.

Quote

Should ん always be romanized as n, or as n or m depending on the following sound?
Example: 先輩 : senpai VS sempai
Should ん be romanized as n' when followed by a vowel?
Example:
記念: kinen (in either case)
禁煙: kin'en VS kinen

Really, its the pronounciation that's in question over here, but even though sometimes its heard as sempai, the romaji is still ん. Therefore, we stick with senpai.
And yes, add the ' please.

Quote
Multiple readings
When multiple pronunciations are possible and the official lyrics provide no furigana, obviously the romanization should be based on the reading that can be heard in the song. However, in rare cases the reading used will vary per idol.
Example: 行く: iku & yuku
What should we do in these cases?

Its up to the comprehension of the viewer as both essentially mean the same, other than the pronounciation.
However, in cases where it is proven that its yuku, for instance, yuku must be used.(Like Agent yoru wo yuku) Otherwise, either is fine. In this context, the idol has the proof. Anything the idol sings goes. So modifications just had to be made. Again, the suggestion for "Romanization Standardization and Clarifications" thread.

Quote
Spacing
Should particles be separated from the words or particles they follow by a space?
Example: いつまでも: itsumademo VS itsu made mo

For me, i consider itsumade as one part, the particle mo, on the other part. This is due to the fact that particles string sentences together, and it gets confusing if its seperated to a person who doesn't know much Japanese because it looked like its part of the words itself. In other words, my answer is "Itsumade mo".

Quote
Should particles following a copula be separated from it by a space?
Example: だけど: dakedo VS da kedo

This is different. I don't see a need to change things like this one. Dakedo will do fine since the word cannot exist without this particle.

Quote
Should verbs constructed out of multiple verbs be separated by a space?
Example: 抜け出して: nukedashite VS nuke dashite
Example: 振り切り昇る: furikirinoboru VS furikiri noboru VS furi kiri noboru

The verbs are combined such that they mean different when seperated and readed as one by one, but together, there's a totally different meaning. Similar to how elements fuse to form compounds.

Quote
Should verbs combined by a -te form be separated by a space?
Example: いってしまった: itteshimatta VS itte shimatta
I agree with Nanashi on this point.

Quote
Should verbs that have been drawn together be separated by a space?
Example: 超えてく: koeteku VS koete ku
Not at all. Ku is a part of Koeteku. Ku cannot be used if there isn't a Koete, and is essential in the entire meaning.

Quote
Should an additional space be used when a space is used in the Japanese lyrics?
Example: そっと目を伏せて 忘れるわ: sotto me wo fusete wasureru wa VS sotto me wo fusete  wasureru wa
I don't know about this either because its really up to the viewer's discretion at this point. However, if it was me, i would either leave it as it is(no additional space) or seperate them as different sentences(Enter).

Quote
Should the explanative の shortened to ん be separated from the copula after it and the word before it?
Example: 変わるんだろう: kawarundarou VS kawaru ndarou VSkawaru n darou
Example: そうなんですか: sou nandesu ka VS sou na ndesu ka VS sou na n desu ka
N follows the word before it. Therefore it should be "Kawarun darou" and "Sounan desuka" IMO.


Quote
Punctuation
Should ?!。、 be shown in the romanization or not?
Should 「」 be romanized to " ", left as 「」 or not shown at all?
Should ・・・ be romanized to ..., left as ・・・ or not shown at all?
All these follow the Japanese characters. Since romaji is shown as english, and ? ! . , is used in the english characters, i say we stick with those. That means " " and ... as well.

Quote
Should incorrect punctuation be carried over to the romanization or turned into correct punctuation/omitted?
Example: Shooting Fire!!! : Shooting Fire!!! VS Shooting Fire!
Example: 夢の中で また☆*:包んで*☆: yume no naka de mata ☆*:tsutsunde*☆: VS yume no naka de mata tsutsunde

It really isn't too much of an issue, but if its me, i'll go with the original. But for the second one where symbols are used, i don't prefer the usage of symbols because they don't fit in english sentences, and meaning doesn't change much or anything, just the tone. Unless the reader wants to read and experience, i don't see why we should keep those.

Quote
Romanization of English and other non-Japanese languages

Should English written in katakana be converted back to English, or should it be romanized as usual/as the Japanese pronounce it?
Example: ミラクル スタートスター!: MIRACLE START STAR! vs MIRAKURU SUTAATO SUTAA!
(Please ignore long vowel and capitalization issues in this example)
The Japanese pronounce english words using katakana, and they follow the katakana. Its not used just for the fun out of it. They use Katakana for ease, and they pronounce katakana as it should be. Therefore i suggest keeping the original romaji, especially in song translations.

Quote
If it should be converted back to English, how should 'English' that does not correspond directly with an existing English word be handled?
Example: ヒスってもしかたない
Example: テレビ
So that people who don't understand know what the person was actually saying, i would put the original romaji such as "terebi" and add a (Television) after it. However, most had commonsense so i guess it can be omitted. Just "terebi" will do.

If it should be converted back to English, does this apply to English written in hiragana?
Example: ああゆうれでぃ?: aa yuu redi? VS are you ready?[/quote]
Same as above.


Quote
Capitalization
Currently, English (or French, etc.) words shown in katakana will be presented in capital letters in the romanization.
But what about:

Should English words shown in hiragana be romanized in capital letters?
I don't know how to go about this one. I understand the need for it to be romanized in capital letters to fulfill viewer-friendly needs, but on the other hand, i agree with what Nanashi said.

Quote
Should Japanese words shown in katakana be romanized in capital letters?
No. For the very obvious reason.

Quote
Should English words shown in English in the Japanese lyrics be shown in capital letters, in lower case or should the original capitalization be preserved?
Example: 空の 色が変わってゆく Daylight: sora no iro ga kawatte yuku DAYLIGHT VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku daylight VS sora no iro ga kawatte yuku Daylight
If the original capitalization should be preserved, should this be done for incorrect capitalization?
Example: Shooting Fire! : Shooting Fire! VS Shooting fire!
All letter capitalization applies to english words depicted in Katakana. In cases where real english is shown instead, i say it should be preserved.

Quote
Should the first letter of each line of the romanization be capitalized or not?
I always do this out of habit and tidiness, but on a must-basis, i don't think so. I'll leave this to how others prefer it to be because i don't really care about this one.

Quote
If punctuation is used, should a ?, ! or . be followed by a capital letter in the romanization?
Same as above.

Quote
Should the first letters of romanized names of people and places be capitalized or not?
I say its customary to capitalize them. The language doesn't really matter for this question. Its a question of respect, so they should be capitalized. However, in cases where the name is given as such (First letter wasn't capitalized out of intention) such as "arcadia", i also think its a case of respecting others' wishes, especially since they are the people who made this.

Quote
Pro
The logo's say 765 Production, 961 Production and 876 Production. Common sense (I guess) says Productions. The wiki says both. Which should we go with?
I would go with Productions, but then again it doesn't really matter to me, so i leave it to you guys.

Nanashi

  • Guest
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 07:54:54 pm »
Maybe we should create a "Romanization Standardization and Clarifications" page?
I think this is a very good suggestion. Then perhaps we could add small-lettered link to that page at the bottom of the romaji column of every song to make sure it's easy to check whenever needed?

By the way, I can see what you mean for the kawarun darou example. I hadn't thought of it that way yet. To me it seemed more natural that when the particle の is 'shortened' to ん (as in のだ --> んだ) it's the n and d sounds that are being 'pulled together' when o is omitted, but come to think about it, I guess that is just my Western-languages mindset speaking.

And maybe いつまでも wasn't such a great example, so I'll add another one to the original list of questions.

Laburey

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 08:08:16 pm »
If you come up with common examples, you could use google.

I got "kawarundarou" 88 hits, "kawarun darou" 137 hits, "kawaru ndarou" 6 hits, "kawaru n darou" 175 hits.

Nanashi

  • Guest
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 08:18:23 pm »
Nice, so that would suggest ru n da is most common then...

*googles*

That is, until you remove rou.
kawaru n da: 250
kawarun da: 5
kawaru nda: 129
kawarunda: 767
Somehow I doubt Google is going to help much... :-\

Edit: experimented with some more common examples like iru n da, aru n desu, omou n desu, iku n da etc., but the results weren't really consistent. (Except u nd gave the least hits every time.)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 08:26:52 pm by Nanashi »

Laburey

  • Guest
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 09:16:32 pm »
Well, it was worth a try at least. It just shows that romaji is not "pinned down" as a language. It's still unfinished, you could say.

And all those amounts of hits are pretty small, too. Not a large enough sample, really.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 09:18:37 pm by Laburey »

Nanashi

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 09:25:13 pm »
Very true...
I doubt it's possible to find a real large sample though, since there aren't all that many reasons to post romaji on the web.

yukipo

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Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 11:13:09 pm »
So, have we come to an agreement yet? I have lots of free time to go and change the song pages once we've come to one.

Nanashi

  • Guest
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 03:21:37 pm »
I think it would be fair to give more members a chance to voice their opinion first, since this topic hasn't been here for long.

Anyway, if Procyon's suggestion for a new table layout is passed as the new standard, I will have to take back what I said about not capitalizing the first letter of a new line of romaji. Capitalizing it will make it easier to see where the real line break is when lines are split because the of size limit of their column.

Also, another spacing issue I forgot about: sentence ending particles. Lots of inconsistency on this one.
分かってるよ: wakatteru yo VS wakatteruyo
だよね: da yo ne VS dayone VS dayo ne
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:23:12 pm by Nanashi »

Laburey

  • Guest
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 03:45:49 pm »
Also, another spacing issue I forgot about: sentence ending particles. Lots of inconsistency on this one.
分かってるよ: wakatteru yo VS wakatteruyo
だよね: da yo ne VS dayone VS dayo ne

Another tricky question, yeah. For example "matane" is more common than "mata ne". But on the other hand "dewa mata ne" seems more common than "dewa matane" and "dewamatane".

Personally I most often think that to not use spaces makes romaji feel more like Japanese, intuitively. But as Harrason pointed out in an earlier post, it can lead to loss of clarity and as this is about song translations, maybe spaces are better if there's cause for misunderstanding without them.

It's the best reasoning I can come up with.


Harrason

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  • Posts: 96
Re: Romanization Standardization
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2009, 03:54:46 pm »
Sentence ending particles are considered by most to be part of the previous word, therefore spaces usually are not used. This usually applies to common particles such as yo, ne, wa, and other common particles used to decide the tone.

However, when the words get too long or so, people will usually make it easier to understand by seperating them. This applies if two verbs are strung together, and it gets long enough so people seperated it.

In cases where ending particles are more than 1(ちょっと違うかも (Chotto chigau kamo) ), people usually seperate them. Similar if i replace a kamo with a desu instead.