THE iDOLM@STER > THE iDOLM@STER Platinum Stars
DL Lives
Naryoril:
I doubt your claim that the DL lives are on disc is correct, since at least DL live 1 doesn't work without catalog 1, you can select the event, but then you get a prompt to download the catalog first. So i think it's fair to assume they are part of the catalog.
But let's assume your claim is correct, they are all already on the disc. Let's assume the alternative to the DL lives is not "not having these items at all". What do you propose then? What would be the alternative to distributing the items from the DL lives? Since it's about you complaining about the DL lives, we are not talking about the general method of acquiring items by low probability drops (where if fully agree that the system is stupid the way it is implemented) and you are not allowed to change that. If all the lives and its items already were on disc, how would you want to get these items? Add them all and into the normal gold present pool? That would make getting all items even more difficult due to doubles since you can't just focus on the sub-pool where you are still missing items. Or keep them as is, but having them all available right of the bat? That doesn't change anything.
So you claim the alternative to the DL lives is not "not having them", what would your better alternative be then? Remember, we are talking about DL lives here, not about the base mechanics of the game.
Oh, and btw: i'm the one insulting people?
--- Quote from: Setsuna on August 23, 2016, 10:21:06 am ---or at the very least, can I have some of whatever you're smoking?
--- End quote ---
Let's keep it civil here please.
Setsuna:
You are strawman arguing and you know it. I have stated solutions, and your demand to 'answer the question' shows you actually believe the base premises that NBEI have made, or you do not (or do not WANT TO) understand the actual problem.
One shows arrogance. The other shows ignorance. Which one would you like me to expose?
For one, I'm going to make it very clear (As I have several posts in a row) the problem isn't the DL lives, it is the model which the drop system is designed off.
The DL live system would work fine (for various definitions of fine, I suppose but that's a matter of modelling), but the base assumptions that they used are either flawed (namely, they assumed that the real life spread would be far less than they ended up being) or they really wanted to go in for the long haul (namely that 2-4 hours a day, every day for a year for 50/100% completion at roughly 66%)
The first is a probability oversight and can be corrected by increasing the rate and introducing a present drop floor. The second is scary, and needs to be corrected by reevaluating what the expected PS player would actually be DOING over the course of six months or a year, then adjusting the drop rates so they reasonably match the actual expected within a deviation or two.
If you attempt to straw man the argument again, (Cause this is already the second time in as many posts AFTER pushing forward two posts of insults) you've demonstrated that you're not actually interested in a discussion and are trying to push a narrative without an iota of respect, and you will be given the amount of respect as you are due.
You can keep the DL live system as is, actually, if you modelled completion to something relatively SANE. 80 hours or more PER EVENT is not sane by any measure, and you know it, because you haven't attempted to defend that point.
Don't push your luck further.
Seriously, if you're going to claim moral high ground, could you at least check it's outside of artillery range FIRST?
Naryoril:
Ah, so we actually agree, you also say the DL lives are not an issue, it's a problem in the base mechanics. I was ALWAYS talking about just the DL lives, i wrote it severeal times, i also wrote several times that the low probability percentage item distribution sucks in my optionon and is legitemately criticized, but that has nothing to do with how many DL lives there are and if the items from the DL lives are recolors or not. The thread is called "DL lives", if you want to discuss the fundamental problem of the presents system, that should be done in a different thread.
That's also why i never defended the point of needing to spend a lot of time to get all items, because i completely agree with you. My point was always that having the DL lives as they are now, is the best method i can think of as long as nothing is changed in the base mechanics of the item distribution. The alternatives, namely having everything in one pool, or not having them at all, are both worse for people who want to have every single item to make videos. And for people who don't need all the DL live accessories, having more DL lives doesn't have any drawbacks at all.
Setsuna:
--- Quote from: Naryoril on August 23, 2016, 01:07:18 pm ---Ah, so we actually agree, you also say the DL lives are not an issue, it's a problem in the base mechanics. I was ALWAYS talking about just the DL lives, i wrote it severeal times, i also wrote several times that the low probability percentage item distribution sucks in my optionon and is legitemately criticized, but that has nothing to do with how many DL lives there are and if the items from the DL lives are recolors or not. The thread is called "DL lives", if you want to discuss the fundamental problem of the presents system, that should be done in a different thread.
That's also why i never defended the point of needing to spend a lot of time to get all items, because i completely agree with you. My point was always that having the DL lives as they are now, is the best method i can think of as long as nothing is changed in the base mechanics of the item distribution. The alternatives, namely having everything in one pool, or not having them at all, are both worse for people who want to have every single item to make videos. And for people who don't need all the DL live accessories, having more DL lives doesn't have any drawbacks at all.
--- End quote ---
Problem is that the current existence of the DL lives causes SIGNIFICANT issues with the longevity and viability of the game.
Essentially you're saying 'something is better than nothing'.
Not always.
Present a mountain that says 'If you crawl another 80 hours, you MAY get more options' after presenting another TWO mountains with the exact same premise, and you WILL lose people who will straight up go 'You know what? Screw this. I've better things to do apart from beat my head against a DL live'.
You want to scare someone in that scenario to quit? You show them ANOTHER mountain of optional content and go 'Well, if you spend 70 hours, you might turn up everything. Allegedly.'
In fact I'm talking with three people who have flat out said 'What's the point of playing the game at ALL?' and have flat out quit. The DL live mountains have exposed the rest of the game's issues, because the curves are easily calculated.
As I'd quote from one person:
'ok, now i'm looking into a way to automate this shit. 200 lives - 0 gold drop in a row is just fucking too much.'
Basically in our current iteration, it might actually pay dividends if they STOPPED releasing lives until either of the solutions I proposed were implemented, then carefully present in a way where the mountain that WILL be DL Live 4 isn't nearly as high, and the previous lives got their mountain size reduced accordingly.
Perception is reality, and right now, the DL lives are perceived as a massive problem. They're symptoms of a much deeper problem, but for those who are playing the lives and/or seeing someone else playing them, they ARE the problem.
Cause let's face it. 80+ hours for 66% chance to get the 4 DL accessories is downright inane. That's what everyone's seeing, and that's frankly the truth of the matter as far as we can determine.
So the problem with the core systems IS the DL live's problem, because they're the point where they're most clearly exposed - unlike the regular game, there's no 'catch all' where you can secure items normally exclusive to gold presents via a forced live drop (unlike say the S rank accessories, which at S rank have a live that will FORCIBLY drop 2 of them if you EX, regardless if you had any luck prior. I think the S rank costumes also get a similar catch all once you get certain idols to S rank).
The fact the accessories in a DL live DON'T get a forced drop means the drop system gets exposed, and well, you get to find out the math. The hard way, and so consequently DL lives ARE part of the problem, even though they aren't the CAUSE of the problem, and consequently why the core game mechanics matter so much as part of the DL live.
You can't separate the two, because DL lives don't WORK because the main system doesn't, and the main system's flaws show most clearly BECAUSE the DL lives are badly designed for the model used for the main game.
One solution may be to allow a live to show up at 120 repeats which will forcibly drop (at EX clear) a special present/card/item which will randomly spawn any ONE of the accessories which you don't have already. (If you already have all 4, you can't use the item, and can sell it for some small amount of money, but this would assume you want copies for levelling)
This would put the play ceiling at 600 lives (or roughly 50 hours of gameplay) as an absolute CAP.
50 hours is STILL a lot of time, but pdrops/luck etc would reduce this significantly, meaning natural luck helps, and p-drops still have significant value (So still works as a microtransaction, for people who don't want to do the live up to 600 times). Basically the 50 hours would be a hard cap, and would be the absolutely worst case scenario.
Naryoril:
So you are saying with the system as it is, you'd rather have less items in the game than more. On the other hand a lot of people are complaining that there are not enough costume and accessories in the game as is.
And those people quitting, how much time have they put into the game? Probably more than enough so you can say they got their money's worth of playtime out of the game. And i think it would be unfair to stop delivering new items to everyone (2 are guaranteed), just because some people absolutely want absolutely everything (whatever the reason is) and would have to put way way too much time into getting them and get discouraged because they see more work coming their way very quickly.
Yes, guaranteeing a drop every x lives would be a good idea, but not just for the DL lives. It is not confirmed yet that the base S rank costumes are guaranteed, is it? Because if not, they would also need that system. And even so, there is still only catalog 1 released, who knows what's coming in the future, the EX episodes changed a lot in OfA, maybe people are just too impatient.
And btw: i don't know anyone who percieves the DL lives as a problem apart from you. Yes, some here have voiced their dissatisfaction with the DL lives, but not with their existence. On other channels i haven't even read dissatisfaction with them.
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