Username: Password:

Author Topic: DL Lives  (Read 13042 times)

Reikuo

  • Apprentice
  • **
  • Posts: 53
  • Forum member
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2016, 02:38:53 am »
They definitely dropped the ball on this IMO. Its just bad decision on top of bad decision.

Drop rates are classic MMO level of drop, the drop rates are absolutely atrocious we all know that one.

The lives that you end up farming at A rank to get everyone to S all use the same 2-3 types of outfit, your forced to either be efficient and do the same live with the same outfit over and over alongside seeing the same stage over and over or be inefficient, further the already extremely brutal grind and farm lives of the costume type you want to see and get very little fans.

Gold Boxes that drop from DL lives do not contain the base game gold box drops making it very punishing just to get an accessory you like.

There is no reason to buy the DLC outfits unless your big into S4U, as the game picks your outfit for you so why spend 1500 yen per outfit?

Comparing this to a slot machine is not really a good comparison, because if you roll triple 7's on a slot machine your getting your payout. When you see a gold box pop up not only could it have the S rank accessory's that you are guaranteed to get in S rank, but it could just be a double of a S rank outfit you already have.

As stated earlier in the thread, hyper fans might put up with the state of this game but any casual fan of the genre or just casual fan in general is not going to farm for ages for drops. The songs are old, the characters are established, they had one job and that was to make costumes for them to wear and they just totally botched that aspect of the game. I dont think I have ever not worn the tiara on the head. Its just sad.


My personal ideas for a fix with minimal effort on Namcos part:
Overall increased drop rates
Gold tickets should have a chance to reward S rank outfits
A Live for ranks F-S that has randomized stages and requests a different random outfit type each time you complete it, with no cool/cute/cosmic/clever secondary typing. Or it could just even be typeless. This Live will reward the most fans out of all the lives in that rank.

Fixes with more work required:
Overall increased drop rates, but to keep heavy farmers/pdrop users interested there should be hyper ultra rare outfits and accessory's with nasty drop rates.
Small set of outfits/accessory's added to the store ranging from 500k to 5million. Money feels totally useless in this, in addition getting duplicates to sell would not seem quite as shitty as it does now.
New outfits to be worn by the idols in the menus, either sold in the shop or rare drops

PSN Reikuo

DeathStrikr

  • Greenhorn
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2016, 03:07:02 am »
Are the drop rates for the DL Lives lower than normal lives or have I just been getting lucky with normal lives?
I've done ~600 regular lives and haven't really had any issues with drops. I get silver presents pretty frequently and have gotten around 15 gold presents total (Just missing the leg accessory at this point).
Only thing is I am on a US account so I can't use P-Drops, though I'm not sure if that factors in.

Setsuna

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2016, 03:16:06 am »
Are the drop rates for the DL Lives lower than normal lives or have I just been getting lucky with normal lives?
I've done ~600 regular lives and haven't really had any issues with drops. I get silver presents pretty frequently and have gotten around 15 gold presents total (Just missing the leg accessory at this point).
Only thing is I am on a US account so I can't use P-Drops, though I'm not sure if that factors in.

I'd kill for your luck. We're working on a particularly small sample size, (There's not that many people playing Platinum Stars, basically) but you've gotten more in 600 lives than I've managed over the course of roughly twice that. This includes 2 gold presents I forced out via p-drop use.

Also, DL live drops use a different drop table (Which is not shown). It's known at this point that any of the 6 (The S rank, the C rank, and any of the 4 accessories) can show up, and it's not known if it's a glitch or not, but you can turn up any of the F or E costumes out of a gold present too.

None of the regular gold present items will show if you're doing the DL live. All the silver ones use the regular drop system, but apparently they added the chance (might have glitched) where you can get the DL live accessories out of a silver present.

It could be that there's a region compensation - we were speculating that, but it's very difficult to measure, mostly cause we'd need people to sacrifice huge amounts of time to test the theory.

(Namely, JP, KR and China (When China releases) accounts have lower drop rates to drive p-drop purchases.)
Games are streamed at www.hitbox.tv/Aliciana/
No focus, any platform, suggestions welcome

Currently accepting Platinum Stars requests: http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2575.0

http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2415 - My technical notes on good quality recording.

DeathStrikr

  • Greenhorn
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2016, 03:28:52 am »
I'd kill for your luck. We're working on a particularly small sample size, (There's not that many people playing Platinum Stars, basically) but you've gotten more in 600 lives than I've managed over the course of roughly twice that. This includes 2 gold presents I forced out via p-drop use.

Also, DL live drops use a different drop table (Which is not shown). It's known at this point that any of the 6 (The S rank, the C rank, and any of the 4 accessories) can show up, and it's not known if it's a glitch or not, but you can turn up any of the F or E costumes out of a gold present too.

None of the regular gold present items will show if you're doing the DL live. All the silver ones use the regular drop system, but apparently they added the chance (might have glitched) where you can get the DL live accessories out of a silver present.

It could be that there's a region compensation - we were speculating that, but it's very difficult to measure, mostly cause we'd need people to sacrifice huge amounts of time to test the theory.

(Namely, JP, KR and China (When China releases) accounts have lower drop rates to drive p-drop purchases.)

Hm, I'll try just playing the DL lives from now on and see if I get different drop rates. Was avoiding it before because I wanted the other s rank costumes first.
Still ways away from grinding everyone to S Rank, so I'll probably have a large sample size of lives by the end of it.

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2016, 07:27:50 am »
@setsuna: all that is completely irrelevant if you don't want to make a catalog, or make videos with every possible item out there. How many people does that concern? Most probably less than 1%, probably even less than 0.1%

@reikuo: all this, while valid, has nothing to do with the DL lives, or more precisely whether the items you get from DL lives are recolors or not. In fact the DL lives help with what you are saying by adding more A rank lives with probably all different costume requirements.

DeviantProtagonist

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 996
  • 本当にありがとう, あずみん.
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2016, 08:07:09 am »
@setsuna: all that is completely irrelevant if you don't want to make a catalog, or make videos with every possible item out there. How many people does that concern? Most probably less than 1%, probably even less than 0.1%

God damn, you're rude.
Suddenly, bow-wow-wow~. :3

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2016, 08:40:58 am »
God damn, you're rude.

It's simply stating the truth. Or are you saying that because of less than 1% of the players, who want to do stuff for people who make unreasonable requests (which is what requesting videos with the DL live accessories is), the other 99% should get less costumes, accessories and ingame events, in other words, less DL lives, or even better for that 1%, no DL lives at all?

Setsuna

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2016, 08:52:42 am »
@setsuna: all that is completely irrelevant if you don't want to make a catalog, or make videos with every possible item out there. How many people does that concern? Most probably less than 1%, probably even less than 0.1%

@reikuo: all this, while valid, has nothing to do with the DL lives, or more precisely whether the items you get from DL lives are recolors or not. In fact the DL lives help with what you are saying by adding more A rank lives with probably all different costume requirements.

And if that's your statement, you didn't actually read more than a few words of what I said.

From what I can tell, your statement is as follows:

"All those people on nico who create M@Ds, derivative content, fanfiction, pictures? Screw them, they don't matter. My perspective matters more than all those people who make things."

"Also 'screw anyone outside my 66% You're unlucky and bad, and you deserve it, because the system is fine for me."

Thank you for making the declaration, particularly without addressing how the numbers affect people not you.


It also shows a HUGE amount of ignorance on your half, because you don't understand basic math, let alone actual probability, and it shows a lack of perspective, because you just demonstrated you have no idea what 1200 gaming hours will end up looking like (As I'm aware there's 12 DL lives). Even 600 (Which would net you just HALF the DL live content, if that) is utterly insane for a benchmark.

If you honestly believe your average im@s fan is going to run 600 hours on lives (at 12 lives per hour, which is oh, about 7200 individual songs which is I think safely 'Holy crap that's a lot of songs on repeat') over the course of the lifetime of PS (or even within a year) to get a median 50% of the DL live content, I don't know what your baseline is. 600 hours assumes you're playing for just under 2 HOURS A DAY, EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR, rain, hail, shine, work, classes, acts of god or anything else. (To be precise, you're playing ~ 98 minutes, or 19 songs a DAY, assuming each one took 5 minutes from week start to week end.)

Let those numbers sink in. You play the game for 2 hours a day, every day, and you stand a 66% chance of getting HALF the content from the DL lives (and from my intel there's at least 12 of them.)

You'd need to double that to get 66% odds to get all the DL lives in a year. That isn't a guarantee, but the bet you won't fall more than one standard deviation from unlucky.


Since you didn't even consider the numbers, I've provided some perspective for you. I hope I didn't make your dismissive statement look completely ludicrous in the process.

You've already given a middle finger to 33% of the people that play Platinum Stars. We appreciate the indifference and arrogance you've demonstrated towards us.

I guess if we just so happen to not be lucky, we're expected to pay more for the same material? Those people just need to get on your level? Get good?


Now, let's go further.

So how much of the free content are we supposed to experience anyway? 30% 40% 50%?

THAT is the rough estimate of the median content people will get. That's the C costume, the S costume (if they get that far, depending if you have end game idols or not, well...) and 1 accessory. If you have 2, you're lucky.

So is your answer 'Well, you can have it free, but only some of it?'

Thanks for letting the REST of us (who may not ever devote 20+ hours on a DL live. let alone the median of 80!) know that you hate all but the elite lucky, who will be able to get 2 or more of the accessories (without doubling up remember, because getting an item doesn't mean you can't get it AGAIN!) within the <20 hour window per DL live.

I'll help you with the score keeping - You've just stuck up the middle finger and told them they don't matter to roughly 75% of the ENTIRE Platinum Stars Player Base.

But that's okay. You're happy with it, so basically everyone else is wrong right?


Now since you don't understand the numbers or how they panned out, I'm sure you're just comfortable in explaining to people who make video 'Well, you don't need everything after all, I mean 50/50 is enough to make your videos. You'll just be fine."

So what happens if a creator wanted to make a video using the cat ears of DL Live catalog 1, and his 40% ended up being the foot accessory?

"Oh well, bad luck to him? His video won't matter."

"What about the guy who wanted to use the bat wings and one of the costumes to do a vampire MAD? He got the ears and the ring. He's gotten enough content."

"He's just bad for not playing it enough. He's not in the lucky 25%"

So those videos will just have to be delayed until they're good enough to turn up the required DL item (Which I might add is a gold present at ~1/7, no problem)

... Just what do you think drives part of the fanbase? REALLY?


Apparently unless you're good enough to land what you want, when you want it, we have no rights to discuss OR criticize the model used. (Like I said, the problem isn't the model per se, but the assumptions behind the model. When you look at the numbers, NBEI's assumptions are downright SCARY. Expectations of 4 hours a day for a YEAR for a single player video game is... uh, you're not playing a game at that point, you're demanding mastery of a skill.)

Regardless, I'll pass on the message to a few of the creators at NND, and I'll let them consider your statement. They might be a while of course, so you might have the time to craft an apology if you're fast enough. Or at least a retraction, because they might be collectively upset at you SPECIFICALLY for being such a bonehead and waving them all off.
Games are streamed at www.hitbox.tv/Aliciana/
No focus, any platform, suggestions welcome

Currently accepting Platinum Stars requests: http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2575.0

http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2415 - My technical notes on good quality recording.

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2016, 09:15:43 am »
setsuna, all your calculations are based on one mistake and let's keep it mathematical since you seem to like it so much:

Let's say, someone wants to make a video with all items from a DL live. Let's say, that someone is so impossibly lucky that he gets all the items with just 4 lives, which is theoretically possible, but the probability of that happening is almost 0. Now let's assume that DL live didn't exist, the probability of being able to make that video is exactly 0, even with investing hundreds of hours.

If there never were DL lives to begin with, you wouldn't be complaining about this right now, you are complaining about getting more possibilities for your videos, even if this possibility is incredibly low. And 2 out of the 6 items are even guaranteed after 4 lives.

And again: are you guys telling me that because of the people who want to make videos with items that wouldn't exist at all otherwise, the vast majority of people who doesn't want to make these videos should not get the DL lives?

And btw: you are way way luckier than i am with your drops, i'd love to have so much luck with getting gold drops as you do, from what you wrote (16 presents with 1000 lives) you got 3 times as many as i did (2 out of 450 lives).

Edit: Just to be clear: I completely agree that the drops rates are way too low and that i don't like the method the DL live accessories are delivered at all, but it doesn't change the fact that the DL lives are content that otherwise would be missing completely, and i'd rather take the 33% of it (2 guaranteed out of 6 items) than 0% of it if they didn't exist at all. Are the video creating people different, would they rather have 0% than 33%?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 09:21:28 am by Naryoril »

Setsuna

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2016, 10:21:06 am »
setsuna, all your calculations are based on one mistake and let's keep it mathematical since you seem to like it so much:

Let's say, someone wants to make a video with all items from a DL live. Let's say, that someone is so impossibly lucky that he gets all the items with just 4 lives, which is theoretically possible, but the probability of that happening is almost 0. Now let's assume that DL live didn't exist, the probability of being able to make that video is exactly 0, even with investing hundreds of hours.

If there never were DL lives to begin with, you wouldn't be complaining about this right now, you are complaining about getting more possibilities for your videos, even if this possibility is incredibly low. And 2 out of the 6 items are even guaranteed after 4 lives.

And again: are you guys telling me that because of the people who want to make videos with items that wouldn't exist at all otherwise, the vast majority of people who doesn't want to make these videos should not get the DL lives?

And btw: you are way way luckier than i am with your drops, i'd love to have so much luck with getting gold drops as you do, from what you wrote (16 presents with 1000 lives) you got 3 times as many as i did (2 out of 450 lives).

Edit: Just to be clear: I completely agree that the drops rates are way too low and that i don't like the method the DL live accessories are delivered at all, but it doesn't change the fact that the DL lives are content that otherwise would be missing completely, and i'd rather take the 33% of it (2 guaranteed out of 6 items) than 0% of it if they didn't exist at all.

Nice try except that we're not dealing in the maybe, we're dealing with the now. You can't strawman the 'But if we didn't get the DL Lives' to ME in particular, because I already knew about them six months prior to the game's release, and was already enacting plans AROUND these lives with internal information.

There's 3 DL lives activated. There's another 9 scheduled. THIS is the reality we're dealing with (And yes, the idea was planned. I was warned about it, although the version they ran with was significantly blunted - originally, they were supposed to be on rotation in 2 week periods, to drive p-drop sales. They balked once they saw the backlash. (There's a reason why there's a warning that the lives may disappear without notice in that blog. It's an internal matter with NBEI.)

And yes, the data's on disc with remote activation on PSN. It's been part of the design for months. If you're bored and want to test it, just disconnect your PS4 from the internet. Unless they patched it recently, you'll find that the DL live presents won't work even if you do a DL live and you'll draw from the regular gold present pool instead. (It might take you a while to test it though, since you're not allowed to spend p-drops while disconnected from PSN. On release, the game would actually disable DL Live 1 from being accessed at all if you didn't connect within a day or so.)

You can't cheat this system though, as it won't accept any time unless it's sent through PSN (as it grabs the JP Tokyo server's clock upon running any live as part of the p-drops check) although if you could theoretically spoof the PSN clock, you could actually force the other 9 lives (or at least the 9 I'm AWARE of) from the game disc to run immediately.

In short? You can't put the theoretical of 'Well if the DL lives didn't exist we wouldn't have any content...' only because this was part of the Platinum Stars DESIGN. In short, they made a concerted effort to extend the length of the game.

As I said, the idea was sound, the execution was poor because of several major baseline assumptions and a failure to understand what happens with low % odds without a floor put into place.


And I also addressed the numbers. There's a flaw with yours:

You know those two costumes (The C and the S costumes)? They're in the GOLD present cycle for the DL Live. You get a flat 1/6 (1/7 with the E/F costume bug, although it's not known if they occupy more than one additional slot, and I've received one of 3 different ones, so it could actually shoot out to 1/10) to receive a specific DL live accessory.

That's after the odds on getting a gold present to drop, which is governed by the % chance a major appeal note will be registered during a live performance.

It is common (and it's happened to me THREE TIMES, 2 S ranks and a C) to get a costume associated with the DL live. You in fact can get the DL live's S BEFORE you complete DL Live part 4, and ironically, you can even get it before part 1 even if you fail part 1 due to insufficient score (Usually helped by using p-drops to artificially boost the rate of big appeals), meaning if you're lucky enough (or paid enough), you don't have to suffer the penalty for more than one attempt, and the DL live becomes trivial as you have the required costume.

Of course you could end up with 3 of the costume, and NO accessories after 3 gold presents. I guess it sucks to be you if that happens.


You didn't read that bit in the earlier responses, because if you did, you'd have tried to address those notes.

And your notes also show a demonstrated lack of understanding of statistics. I talk in Standard Deviations (Namely an accepted base + rough estimates of what would be considered well outside the median) because there is NO WAY to control 'who gets lucky and who gets shafted'

Someone out there is statistically going to do the near impossible.

Someone ELSE out there is also going to do the other end of the near impossible.

Here's the flaw of your argument when you claim it doesn't matter - Someone who made videos for OfA. im@s2, im@s 1/L4U, SP, Arcade, DS or anything else doesn't get to pick WHICH END they end at. It's a black box, and they can end up anywhere.

If we could, we'd try our damned hardest to PICK the winning end of the extreme, but alas, we can't. Other forces (namely the PS4's seed, time of day we made the save, producer name, PSN account name and a raft of other stuff) will determine that, and although we can alter the odds very slightly, we don't know HOW to (because we aren't told what affects the seeds that influence the appeals in game to give big appeals on any given note to get enough to force a gold present to drop) so most of it is as blind luck as we can make it, and whatever NBEI's baseline is.


As I said, the problem with the design is mostly the numbers.

The problem isn't the model per se - it's the fact the numbers didn't come with a floor. There's a few ways to address the lack of a floor (Such as PRNG where all misses will increment the chance up for a future hit until it hits, then reset again upon a hit back to its base) but they're not present for now.

Either we accept that they forgot to insert a floor or we have to accept their assumptions when making their model - That they really DO want us playing 4 hours a day for an ENTIRE YEAR to stand roughly 66% chance to get all the DL items.

Think about that for a moment.

28 hours a WEEK.

That's easily most casual jobs. Heck, it's close to what I'm working for at the moment.

You have got to be kidding that's a good assumptive baseline. For something you've been told is free, and you're spending enough hours to call it a job. For a ~66% chance to experience all the content.

For an idea, BLIZZARD don't count on you playing 4 hours a day every day (Tuesday Maintenance for starters) for dailies. They model on from my discussions about 2h30m. (2 hours to complete dailies, 30 minutes for other stuff, not including Raids etc)

Let me emphasize again - Blizzard, you know the guys who made WoW and would presumably know more about MMOs and long play better than either of us just due to sheer experience modeled their MMO around an expectation that 'daily tasks' are at MOST 2 hours and 30 minutes.

Even mobages in Asia don't count on 3 hours of game time over a course of the day without significant AP/energy expenditure, and they're social games closer to Platinum Stars' base design. You get whales who will spend for more energy/AP, but the base model? God no.

There's a significant amount of fudge factor (Cause I'm collecting data from all the people I know who play so my data is not going to be more than a spitball) but 4 hours a day, every day for a year? That's 'You're playing a Korean MMORPG' territory.

Applied to a SINGLE PLAYER GAME with very little interaction with the outer world.


If you don't see the actual absurdity involved in the above statement, let's put a bit MORE perspective. (or at the very least, can I have some of whatever you're smoking?)

If this sort of time was put into League of Legends, DotA Counterstrike, or any other multiplayer vs game, you'd be putting in this sort of time and you'd be expected to be in the top 5% of the playerbase by the other end of the year.

If this was a MMORPG, you would be expected to after all the hours, be in a high end guild, and running end game content.

Hell, if you put this level of practice into Project Diva, you should be able to Perfect a few extreme songs.

If you're expecting THAT profile out of a single player game and believe more than a tiny fraction would actually complete the profile, you have to be an incredibly patient gamer and believe everyone else is like you, or certifiably insane or at least a very, VERY persistent bastard/bitch and believe everyone else is like you.

Even the likes of Xenogears or other megalong jRPGs wouldn't break 150 hours to get every last bit of content.

To expect 300-400 hours as a norm to get 50% of the released content?

Yeah, you might see there's a bit of a problem with the design. As I said, the design is fine - it's the numbers IN that assumption which are completely shot.

(I'd argue that 300-400 hours should be what's expected to 100% the content, tops (Namely, there should be actual catchalls preventing you from missing content at that point). You're already risking sanity and brand saturation and lack of future positive response for running a game primarily about MUSIC that long.

But you're telling me that the model is fine for people listening to say a 20 large, maybe 40 (If we include all DLC) in a loop (assuming they play each song in sequence) 72000 times?

Or more accurately 1800 times EACH? Roughly 67.5 hours of each song repeatedly?

Like I said, you have no appreciation about what the numbers MEAN, which makes your statements a flat out insult to a LOT of people.
Games are streamed at www.hitbox.tv/Aliciana/
No focus, any platform, suggestions welcome

Currently accepting Platinum Stars requests: http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2575.0

http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2415 - My technical notes on good quality recording.

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2016, 11:37:17 am »
I doubt your claim that the DL lives are on disc is correct, since at least DL live 1 doesn't work without catalog 1, you can select the event, but then you get a prompt to download the catalog first. So i think it's fair to assume they are part of the catalog.

But let's assume your claim is correct, they are all already on the disc. Let's assume the alternative to the DL lives is not "not having these items at all". What do you propose then? What would be the alternative to distributing the items from the DL lives? Since it's about you complaining about the DL lives, we are not talking about the general method of acquiring items by low probability drops (where if fully agree that the system is stupid the way it is implemented) and you are not allowed to change that. If all the lives and its items already were on disc, how would you want to get these items? Add them all and into the normal gold present pool? That would make getting all items even more difficult due to doubles since you can't just focus on the sub-pool where you are still missing items. Or keep them as is, but having them all available right of the bat? That doesn't change anything.

So you claim the alternative to the DL lives is not "not having them", what would your better alternative be then? Remember, we are talking about DL lives here, not about the base mechanics of the game.

Oh, and btw: i'm the one insulting people?

or at the very least, can I have some of whatever you're smoking?

Let's keep it civil here please.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 11:42:07 am by Naryoril »

Setsuna

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2016, 12:06:18 pm »
You are strawman arguing and you know it. I have stated solutions, and your demand to 'answer the question' shows you actually believe the base premises that NBEI have made, or you do not (or do not WANT TO) understand the actual problem.

One shows arrogance. The other shows ignorance. Which one would you like me to expose?

For one, I'm going to make it very clear (As I have several posts in a row) the problem isn't the DL lives, it is the model which the drop system is designed off.

The DL live system would work fine (for various definitions of fine, I suppose but that's a matter of modelling), but the base assumptions that they used are either flawed (namely, they assumed that the real life spread would be far less than they ended up being) or they really wanted to go in for the long haul (namely that 2-4 hours a day, every day for a year for 50/100% completion at roughly 66%)

The first is a probability oversight and can be corrected by increasing the rate and introducing a present drop floor. The second is scary, and needs to be corrected by reevaluating what the expected PS player would actually be DOING over the course of six months or a year, then adjusting the drop rates so they reasonably match the actual expected within a deviation or two.

If you attempt to straw man the argument again, (Cause this is already the second time in as many posts AFTER pushing forward two posts of insults) you've demonstrated that you're not actually interested in a discussion and are trying to push a narrative without an iota of respect, and you will be given the amount of respect as you are due.

You can keep the DL live system as is, actually, if you modelled completion to something relatively SANE. 80 hours or more PER EVENT is not sane by any measure, and you know it, because you haven't attempted to defend that point.

Don't push your luck further.

Seriously, if you're going to claim moral high ground, could you at least check it's outside of artillery range FIRST?
Games are streamed at www.hitbox.tv/Aliciana/
No focus, any platform, suggestions welcome

Currently accepting Platinum Stars requests: http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2575.0

http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2415 - My technical notes on good quality recording.

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2016, 01:07:18 pm »
Ah, so we actually agree, you also say the DL lives are not an issue, it's a problem in the base mechanics. I was ALWAYS talking about just the DL lives, i wrote it severeal times, i also wrote several times that the low probability percentage item distribution sucks in my optionon and is legitemately criticized, but that has nothing to do with how many DL lives there are and if the items from the DL lives are recolors or not. The thread is called "DL lives", if you want to discuss the fundamental problem of the presents system, that should be done in a different thread.

That's also why i never defended the point of needing to spend a lot of time to get all items, because i completely agree with you. My point was always that having the DL lives as they are now, is the best method i can think of as long as nothing is changed in the base mechanics of the item distribution. The alternatives, namely having everything in one pool, or not having them at all, are both worse for people who want to have every single item to make videos. And for people who don't need all the DL live accessories, having more DL lives doesn't have any drawbacks at all.

Setsuna

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 1169
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2016, 01:52:20 pm »
Ah, so we actually agree, you also say the DL lives are not an issue, it's a problem in the base mechanics. I was ALWAYS talking about just the DL lives, i wrote it severeal times, i also wrote several times that the low probability percentage item distribution sucks in my optionon and is legitemately criticized, but that has nothing to do with how many DL lives there are and if the items from the DL lives are recolors or not. The thread is called "DL lives", if you want to discuss the fundamental problem of the presents system, that should be done in a different thread.

That's also why i never defended the point of needing to spend a lot of time to get all items, because i completely agree with you. My point was always that having the DL lives as they are now, is the best method i can think of as long as nothing is changed in the base mechanics of the item distribution. The alternatives, namely having everything in one pool, or not having them at all, are both worse for people who want to have every single item to make videos. And for people who don't need all the DL live accessories, having more DL lives doesn't have any drawbacks at all.

Problem is that the current existence of the DL lives causes SIGNIFICANT issues with the longevity and viability of the game.

Essentially you're saying 'something is better than nothing'.

Not always.

Present a mountain that says 'If you crawl another 80 hours, you MAY get more options' after presenting another TWO mountains with the exact same premise, and you WILL lose people who will straight up go 'You know what? Screw this. I've better things to do apart from beat my head against a DL live'.

You want to scare someone in that scenario to quit? You show them ANOTHER mountain of optional content and go 'Well, if you spend 70 hours, you might turn up everything. Allegedly.'

In fact I'm talking with three people who have flat out said 'What's the point of playing the game at ALL?' and have flat out quit. The DL live mountains have exposed the rest of the game's issues, because the curves are easily calculated.

As I'd quote from one person:

'ok, now i'm looking into a way to automate this shit. 200 lives - 0 gold drop in a row is just fucking too much.'


Basically in our current iteration, it might actually pay dividends if they STOPPED releasing lives until either of the solutions I proposed were implemented, then carefully present in a way where the mountain that WILL be DL Live 4 isn't nearly as high, and the previous lives got their mountain size reduced accordingly.

Perception is reality, and right now, the DL lives are perceived as a massive problem. They're symptoms of a much deeper problem, but for those who are playing the lives and/or seeing someone else playing them, they ARE the problem.

Cause let's face it. 80+ hours for 66% chance to get the 4 DL accessories is downright inane. That's what everyone's seeing, and that's frankly the truth of the matter as far as we can determine.

So the problem with the core systems IS the DL live's problem, because they're the point where they're most clearly exposed - unlike the regular game, there's no 'catch all' where you can secure items normally exclusive to gold presents via a forced live drop (unlike say the S rank accessories, which at S rank have a live that will FORCIBLY drop 2 of them if you EX, regardless if you had any luck prior. I think the S rank costumes also get a similar catch all once you get certain idols to S rank).

The fact the accessories in a DL live DON'T get a forced drop means the drop system gets exposed, and well, you get to find out the math. The hard way, and so consequently DL lives ARE part of the problem, even though they aren't the CAUSE of the problem, and consequently why the core game mechanics matter so much as part of the DL live.

You can't separate the two, because DL lives don't WORK because the main system doesn't, and the main system's flaws show most clearly BECAUSE the DL lives are badly designed for the model used for the main game.


One solution may be to allow a live to show up at 120 repeats which will forcibly drop (at EX clear) a special present/card/item which will randomly spawn any ONE of the accessories which you don't have already. (If you already have all 4, you can't use the item, and can sell it for some small amount of money, but this would assume you want copies for levelling)

This would put the play ceiling at 600 lives (or roughly 50 hours of gameplay) as an absolute CAP.

50 hours is STILL a lot of time, but pdrops/luck etc would reduce this significantly, meaning natural luck helps, and p-drops still have significant value (So still works as a microtransaction, for people who don't want to do the live up to 600 times). Basically the 50 hours would be a hard cap, and would be the absolutely worst case scenario.
Games are streamed at www.hitbox.tv/Aliciana/
No focus, any platform, suggestions welcome

Currently accepting Platinum Stars requests: http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2575.0

http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?topic=2415 - My technical notes on good quality recording.

Naryoril

  • Producer
  • *****
  • Posts: 893
    • View Profile
Re: DL Lives
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2016, 02:19:04 pm »
So you are saying with the system as it is, you'd rather have less items in the game than more. On the other hand a lot of people are complaining that there are not enough costume and accessories in the game as is.

And those people quitting, how much time have they put into the game? Probably more than enough so you can say they got their money's worth of playtime out of the game. And i think it would be unfair to stop delivering new items to everyone (2 are guaranteed), just because some people absolutely want absolutely everything (whatever the reason is) and would have to put way way too much time into getting them and get discouraged because they see more work coming their way very quickly.

Yes, guaranteeing a drop every x lives would be a good idea, but not just for the DL lives. It is not confirmed yet that the base S rank costumes are guaranteed, is it? Because if not, they would also need that system. And even so, there is still only catalog 1 released, who knows what's coming in the future, the EX episodes changed a lot in OfA, maybe people are just too impatient.

And btw: i don't know anyone who percieves the DL lives as a problem apart from you. Yes, some here have voiced their dissatisfaction with the DL lives, but not with their existence. On other channels i haven't even read dissatisfaction with them.