Page Name Issues

[Chance4U]

Alright, so we've come to a unique problem where some pages have two "official" romanization names, such as the unit names for Million Live! and some Puchimasu! characters. Also, some pronunciations are different when said or are stylistically written, such as Gemmy vs Jemmy, and Nanairo Button vs Nana Iro Button. It's not just songs and characters either. The radio shows for iM@S and some costumes have several different spellings as well (check the compendium against some of the page names). The current situation is that we have several pages constantly changing names and getting redirected to names that are also official. So what should we do? We NEED your input, because this problem is effecting more and more pages by the month.

We need to come up with an official rule that will take care of the following pages:
Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER vs. The Idolmaster (Effecting every page with it in the title)

Games
* Shiny Festa referred by English or Japanese names (Funky Note vs. Rhythmic Record)
* THE iDOLM@STER: Live for You! vs. THE iDOLM@STER: Live For You!
* THE IDOLM@STER Weiβ Schwarz TCG vs. THE IDOLM@STER Weiss Schwarz TCG

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* LEGEND DAYS vs. Legenddays vs. Legend Days
* OTOME STORM! vs. Otome storm! vs. Otome Storm!
* CRESCENDO BLUE vs. Crescendo Blue
* ETERNAL HARMONY vs. Eternal Harmony
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro

Songs
* Gemmy vs. Jemmy
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button
* Ramune Iro Seishun vs. Ramuneiro Seishun
* Nemuri Hime vs. Nemurihime

Radio Shows
* iM@S SHOW vs. iM@SHOW vs. Ima Show (ect. for other broadcasts)
* THE IDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE iDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE IDOLM@STER Radio vs. THE iDOLM@STER Radio

Costumes
* Red Sequin vs. Red Sparkle
* Lively Rose vs. La Vie Rose
* Webbed Hunter vs. Web and Hunter
* Holy Night Gifter vs. Holy Night Targeter
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter

Other
* THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukougawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukou Gawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE
* THE IDOLM@STER 2 "JUPITER" vs. THE IDOLM@STER Jupiter
* Every CG and ML voice actress.

Yes, these are all separate and official romanizations. If you find a fanmade one, please point it out and I'll remove it.

[altuixde]

Here are my votes:

Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER vs. The Idolmaster

Games
* Shiny Festa referred by English or Japanese names

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro

Songs
* Nemuri Hime vs. Nemurihime

Using a capital I in THE IDOLM@STER now looks better to me than using a lowercase i, even though a lowercase i is the official stylization. It looks more balanced.

Edit: Added some more preferences.

[Maka]

TBH, I think that... The "use official stuff wherever possible" rule is a little silly... The "official" romanizations are always made by native Japanese speakers. That might be good for the Japanese fandom, but it's not good for English speakers, especially since non-native speakers use an entirely different romanization system than Japanese speakers. I think we should go by whatever spelling is most popular among English fans to make the wiki easier to navigate for fans! Additionally, if the official English releases have a certain spelling, let's use that (except for hoobies).

Navigation is key here imo.

Also you edited it after I posted initially, haha.

Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER (Do the IDOL vs. iDOL spellings based on their actual titles on columbia.jp/idolmaster or whatever, though I do kinda agree with altuxde. I don't think it's worth moving pages over bc that sounds like so much work)
* Shiny Festa referred by English or Japanese names (Funky Note vs. Rhythmic Record) (Hmm... Maybe make a redirect here?)

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah (official funimation spelling for English speakers, who this wiki is catered to; Chihya- was most likely an oversight, based on a single image, and it just looks odd imho... The vast majority of romanizations don't translate ー to -)
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki (I know Ryo is what it says on the official standardization guide but everyone here and everywhere else on the internet uses Ryou... It's spelled りょう not りょ)
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin (Also for the other Ijuuin in CG)
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai
(I'm also more partial to feifei instead of fueifuei tbh)

Units
(This is a really dumb reason, but I don't like the way tons of caps lock looks... So that's why my opinion on these is what it is...)
* LEGEND DAYS vs. Legenddays vs. Legend Days  (I didn't say this on the talk page, but the way the name is written is as File:Legenddays, like it was named on a computer or something. Soooo there might not be a space if it's written like that? I'm exhausted from work so this explanation is really weak lol)
* OTOME STORM! vs. Otome storm! (I prefer Otome Storm but I don't mind the small s)
* CRESCENDO BLUE vs. Crescendo Blue
* ETERNAL HARMONY vs. Eternal Harmony
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro (I can't say I have an opinion for this one tbh)

Songs
* Gemmy vs. Jemmy  (Makes more sense with the context of the song! It does a lot of gemstone parallels)
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button (And no other spaces in any other -iro names; much more common spelling... Except where it's supposed to be read as two words, like "______ no Iro"? Does that make sense?)
* Nemuri Hime vs. Nemurihime (This was brought up a really long time ago, but Nemurihime is so... Long and it doesn't look all that pretty... Also that's my main beef with Legenddays.)

Radio Shows
* iM@S SHOW vs. iM@SHOW vs. Ima Show
* THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukougawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukou Gawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE (See the topic on this section)
* THE iDOLM@STER: Live for You! vs. THE iDOLM@STER: Live For You! (No opinion)
* THE IDOLM@STER 2 "JUPITER" vs. THE IDOLM@STER Jupiter (No opinion here either)
* THE IDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE iDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE IDOLM@STER Radio vs. THE iDOLM@STER Radio (Ditto)

Costumes
* Lively Rose vs. La Vie Rose vs. La Vie en Rose
* Webbed Hunter vs. Web and Hunter (Argh I'm so torn for this one because Webbed Hunter looks much better but it definitely is アンド/ANDO... cries)
* Red Sequin vs. Red Sparkle (スパンコール is a loanword for sequin or spangle)
* Holy Night Gifter vs. Holy Night Targeter (ギフター = GIFUTAA = Gifter, targeter would be something like ターゲッター)
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter (Not many primarily English speaking people have a β key on their keyboards; this is my opinion for Marchen vs Märchen btw, though iirc I did make a redirect so Marchen Change goes to Märchen so yay! That's what you could do for this one, tbh)
(Additionally I keep meaning to move Musket Planet to Muscat Planet but it keeps slipping my mind... I'll get to it... Eventually...)

For CG and ML vas, use Wikipedia, MAL, or whatever turns up more results when you google (which is... kinda how I did it...)

Also, I feel like I should add in, no hard feelings against people with other views on romanization! I sound super opinionated here but I'm not! It's hard to convey tone online, haha...

(Will project-imas user Maka ever stop editing this post? Tune in next time!)

[ChocoCats]

Here's my input.
Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER (Same line as Maka and altuxde)
* Shiny Festa referred by English or Japanese names (Funky Note vs. Rhythmic Record) (I say keep both)

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* LEGEND DAYS vs. Legenddays vs. Legend Days (Sersiously Namco, be consistent!)
* OTOME STORM! vs. Otome storm! vs. Otome Storm! (see above)
* CRESCENDO BLUE vs. Crescendo Blue
* ETERNAL HARMONY vs. Eternal Harmony
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro (no opinions here)

Songs
* Gemmy vs. Jemmy (it's an actual word)
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button
* Nemuri Hime vs. Nemurihime (This whole word is Sleeping Beauty's name in Japanese)

Radio Shows
* iM@S SHOW vs. iM@SHOW vs. Ima Show (ect. for other broadcasts)
* THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukougawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukou Gawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE
* THE iDOLM@STER: Live for You! vs. THE iDOLM@STER: Live For You!
* THE IDOLM@STER 2 "JUPITER" vs. THE IDOLM@STER Jupiter
* THE IDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE iDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE IDOLM@STER Radio vs. THE iDOLM@STER Radio

Costumes
* Red Sequin vs. Red Sparkle
* Lively Rose vs. La Vie en Rose
* Webbed Hunter vs. Web and Hunter
* Holy Night Gifter vs. Holy Night Targeter
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter

[Naryoril]

Here is my input, at least where i have an opinion

Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER (Effecting every page with it in the title)

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro

Songs
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button

Radio Shows
* THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukougawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukou Gawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE
* THE IDOLM@STER 2 "JUPITER" vs. THE IDOLM@STER Jupiter

Costumes
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter (correct "german german" would be "Weiβ", but as someone already pointed out, anyone but germans and i think austrians doesn't have that character on their keyboard. Heck, even i don't have it on my keyboard and i live in the german speaking part of switzerland, we write ss for all words. So "Weiss" is the only correct spelling for swiss german.)

Ideally we would use ō and the like, but they have the same problem as β

[Chance4U]

Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER (Use whatever is used on the official site. I don't know about when it shows up in kanji though, like on the radio CD's.)
* Shiny Festa referred by English or Japanese names (Funky Note vs. Rhythmic Record)

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* LEGEND DAYS vs. Legenddays vs. Legend Days (While it may be a stylistic choice, SprouT is still SprouT on the wiki)
* OTOME STORM! vs. Otome storm! vs. Otome Storm!
* CRESCENDO BLUE vs. Crescendo Blue
* ETERNAL HARMONY vs. Eternal Harmony
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro

Songs
* Gemmy vs. Jemmy
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button
* Nemuri Hime vs. Nemurihime

Radio Shows
* iM@S SHOW vs. iM@SHOW vs. Ima Show (iM@STAR and iM@CHU!! just look better than iM@S STAR and iM@S CHU!! imo)
* THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukougawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE: Kagayaki no Mukou Gawa e! vs. THE IDOLM@STER MOVIE
* THE iDOLM@STER: Live for You! vs. THE iDOLM@STER: Live For You! (It is in the logo)
* THE IDOLM@STER 2 "JUPITER" vs. THE IDOLM@STER Jupiter
* THE IDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE iDOLM@STER RADIO vs. THE IDOLM@STER Radio vs. THE iDOLM@STER Radio

Costumes
* Red Sequin vs. Red Sparkle
* Lively Rose vs. La Vie en Rose
* Webbed Hunter vs. Web and Hunter
* Holy Night Gifter vs. Holy Night Targeter
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter (If we go with this one, does that mean we need to change the TCG pages?)

People
* Every CG and ML voice actress.

[DeviantProtagonist]

I'll indulge as well~.

Overall
* THE IDOLM@STER vs. THE iDOLM@STER

Characters
* Chihyaa vs. Chihya- vs. Chihyah
* Makochi- vs. Makochii
* Ryo Akizuki vs. Ryou Akizuki
* Touma Amagase vs. Toma Amagase
* Hokuto Ijuuin vs. Hokuto Ijuin
* Shouta Mitarai vs. Shota Mitarai

Units
* LEGEND DAYS vs. Legenddays vs. Legend Days
* OTOME STORM! vs. Otome storm! vs. Otome Storm!
* CRESCENDO BLUE vs. Crescendo Blue
* ETERNAL HARMONY vs. Eternal Harmony
* Ryugu Komachi vs. Ryuuguu Komachi
* 765 PRO vs. 765PRO vs. 765 Pro

Songs
* Nanairo Button vs. Nana Iro Button

Costumes
* Red Sequin vs. Red Sparkle
* Lively Rose vs. La Vie Rose
* Webbed Hunter vs. Web and Hunter
* Holy Night Gifter vs. Holy Night Targeter
* Weiβ Jupiter vs. Weiss Jupiter

[Maka]

Interestingly, the wikipedia page for Dearly Stars writes it as Ryō... But they have a weird system of romanizations.

And regarding SprouT, I think that's a little different than FULL CAPS LOCK. It could go either way though, I just think the non-caps are less eye searing.

[ChocoCats]

What about Ramune Iro Seishun as well? Should we keep it or use Ramuneiro Seishun like the other iro's?

[Naryoril]

Interestingly, the wikipedia page for Dearly Stars writes it as Ryō... But they have a weird system of romanizations.

That's actually the correct Hepburn romanization. Wrting it as Ryou is just because it's a pain to write ō.

[Chance4U]

What about Ramune Iro Seishun as well? Should we keep it or use Ramuneiro Seishun like the other iro's?

I honestly don't know, but it has to be consistent with whatever we decide.

I think the problem is that we're looking at these on a case by case basis when we could be making rules that cover multiple scenarios, like using the first or last official name, ignoring stylistic titles, ect.

[Virgofall]

Okay, what I want to ask with Page Names is, what is the intended reason to change them?
Granted, there's some special cases where yes, it's probably better to go against a particular rule that may end up formed. But I need to ask this core question because you could potentially be changing a lot more titles than you realize as a result of any rules formed.

I think we should go by whatever spelling is most popular among English fans to make the wiki easier to navigate for fans! Additionally, if the official English releases have a certain spelling, let's use that (except for hoobies).

Navigation is key here imo.

This is a primary point in my mind; unless the translation of something is so horrendously bad that using it's a bad idea, I think using official English-language release content should be prioritized.

I'm just going to quote this because, this is why you might have to change much more pages than otherwise thought:

Navigation is key here imo.

Are we simply changing pages for the sake of consistency, or is trying to make them easy to navigate a factor, also? Wiki page titling rules pretty much ask that, except for the first character given in a title, all characters after that need to be exact. (Given this, I won't support special characters by default. Redirects help with this one, such as with Start→ Star→, but still.)

I think ignoring stylistic choices (such as edeN, for example) would be beneficial, given wiki titling mechanics. It doesn't make much sense that "DREAM" and "dREAM" can work, but not "Dream" like most people are typically used to with English proper nouns, in my mind. However, I'm not sure what this would mean for "The iDOLM@STER" since arguably, the title ITSELF for the entire franchise is a stylistic decision. I would personally render it as "The Idolmaster" myself, for that reason, if navigation is a concern.

For songs, I'd say that if the title's spelling is in question, to check the context of the song to see if the title's used in it and how it's used, or if other influences would change its spelling (e.g. Gemmy; supportive of this also because it makes more sense with the song's references).

I don't do physical wiki edits myself, but just my thoughts on this.

[Chance4U]

Okay, what I want to ask with Page Names is, what is the intended reason to change them? Are we simply changing pages for the sake of consistency, or is trying to make them easy to navigate a factor, also?

Consistency is the main issue. We have several pages where the translation could go either way, and it does on the wiki (iM@SHOW vs. ImaSHOW vs. Ima Show, ect.) The lack of consistency is what's causing our pages to be harder to navigate.

But I need to ask this core question because you could potentially be changing a lot more titles than you realize as a result of any rules formed.
This is a primary point in my mind; unless the translation of something is so horrendously bad that using it's a bad idea, I think using official English-language release content should be prioritized.

I agree with using the official English release content, as that would bring conclusions to the character sections via SHINY FESTA and Puchimasu! although as Maka pointed out Ryo's name could easily by an official misspelling. But, the problem is arising where multiple names are available in the Japanese release versions. In addition, several Japanese only names like "アイドルマスター Radio For You!" have conflicting names (compare the cases on Vol. 0 and Vol. 2, they have different cases of i). We're getting more and more of these situations (ML units, new games like SideM) that if we don't get some sort of rules, we could have the pages "OTOME STORM!", "Legenddays", and "Eternal Harmony" all exist and still technically be correct.

I think ignoring stylistic choices (such as edeN, for example) would be beneficial, given wiki titling mechanics. It doesn't make much sense that "DREAM" and "dREAM" can work, but not "Dream" like most people are typically used to with English proper nouns, in my mind. However, I'm not sure what this would mean for "The iDOLM@STER" since arguably, the title ITSELF for the entire franchise is a stylistic decision. I would personally render it as "The Idolmaster" myself, for that reason, if navigation is a concern.

You're right in the sense of navigation, and the solution is looking more and more like some pages are going to be forced into having several disambiguation pages and redirects. If I was a first time user and searched the term "The Idolm@ster", I'd get nowhere fast on the wiki. For the term "THE iDOLM@STER", if we were to get rid of the stylistic choices and change it to "The Idolmaster", we could have a decently sized disambig page to calm it down. That would solve the "overall", "games" and "units" secitions.

The problem now lies with the Songs, Costumes and Radio sections. What's left is spacing (Songs and Radio) and the high usage of Engrish and if we should try to match the compendium (Costumes). Maka's solution of -iro would finish most of the songs, but we still have the Nemurihime situation.

That is, if we agree to go with Virgo's suggestion.

[Miyuka]

Actually, nanairo is a word: both Digital Daijisen and Daijirin Third Edition have it, and I'm pretty sure that every Japanese dictionary would have it, too. The same goes for nemurihime (Daijisen, Daijirin). They qualify as words because the native speakers of the Japanese language pronounce each of them as one word rather than two words stuck together. In dialects which scholars call "Tokyo-type", nana is pronounced HL-L (that is, the first na has a high pitch and the second has a low pitch, and a particle following it would take a low pitch) and iro LH-L (I am not really sure about iro), while nanairo is pronounced LHLL-L. Similarly, nemuri is pronounced LHH-H, hime LH-L (again, not sure about hime) and nemurihime LHHLL-L. Now it is clear they are not just the sum of their parts.

Mukougawa is clearly a word, because the gawa part takes rendaku. Interpreting it as two words just does not make any sense.

In case of ramune-iro, I think the iro part occurs as a suffix, not as a separate word. However, as ramune-iro is clearly not a word to be found in any dictionary, I would prefer ramune-iro with a hyphen to make clear where the boundary occurs.

Regarding the long vowels, my opinion is that we should follow the case of Takane Shijou, whose name is consistently transcribed such. She also turns out to be the first of her likes. Applying the same scheme as Shijou Takane, we would have Chihyaa, Makochii, Ryou Akizuki, Touma Amagase, Hokuto Ijuuin, Shouta Mitarai, and Ryuuguu Komachi.

Finally, I think that it is 765 Production but abbreviated 765PRO, not 765 Pro, based on the consistent occurrence of 765PRO ALLSTARS.

[ChocoCats]

So, the full tracklist of LTH 03 and 04 are out. 03 is CRESCENDO BLUE on the Youtube preview video but the actual cover is Crescendo blue.  04 is ETERNAL HARMONY.