Pre-release thread: THE iDOLM@STER: Platinum Stars

[DeviantProtagonist]

I know I've said this before, but at least 765 girls don't have it nearly worse as Takane, who hits her reset button on a daily basis.

[Freedomzz]

I feel at some point there's gotta be a brand new generation of 765 idols with the originals appearing older and as mentors to the newbies. That way, it can give something fresh and new to the story while still keeping the original girls for fanservice.

You mean, do you want the story somewhat like ML manga?

I know I've said this before, but at least 765 girls don't have it nearly worse as Takane, who hits her reset button on a daily basis.

Do you mind elaborate this?

[Maka]

Well, the 765 girls are pretty static with their character arcs in different games. For example, Chihaya's routes will always be Trauma -> Warming up to the producer -> Overcoming trauma. We won't ever get a game where Makoto is the princess type she wants to be, or Miki doesn't overcome her laziness as part of her arc.

And since Takane's schtick is being mysterious, we won't ever get her backstory or any development really.

i wish Scamco was more willing to shake up these characters. it's like why I'm done with superhero movies: there's only so many times we can see Uncle Ben die or Batman angst over his parents before it gets... Idk.

[MetalPredat0r]

You mean, do you want the story somewhat like ML manga?

Something along those lines. At this point, any kind of major change in the characters would be nice, since at this point it's hard for me to care about character development anymore, since I know that next game I'm gonna be seeing this exact same story with the exact same shticks and the exact same resolution. It's getting stale at this point.

i wish Scamco was more willing to shake up these characters. it's like why I'm done with superhero movies: there's only so many times we can see Uncle Ben die or Batman angst over his parents before it gets... Idk.

At least superhero movies shake it up with having different superheroes telling their own stories, rather than always focusing on one group of characters everytime. And everything that happens in each movie sticks until the end of the series, rather than get reset after each and every movie.

[Nayre]

Eh, at least newcomers will have an easier time getting into it. XD
I just think of it as a HD remake with the same characters and story, but in a different setting leading into new interactions and situations, new gameplay mechanics, and improved, larger scale concerts to top it off.  Pretty sure it'll still be a fresh, enjoyable experience even without new developments.  *drools* Especially in the lives aspect of it all.  I keep rewatching that medley vid and gawd, I'm loving this!  I think they did a really great job capturing the spirit and overall feel of im@s lives.(tho i wouldn't really know  ) Those fluid body movements and dynamic camera angles! GAH everything looks so gorgeous!

Anyways, this might be the last 2nd vision game we're gonna get.  Let's just enjoy it while it lasts!

We won't ever get a game where Makoto is the princess type she wants to be

You actually got me really curious and I ended up looking for Makoto pics of her with long hair lol.  Wow. 

[mariokirby]

I feel at some point there's gotta be a brand new generation of 765 idols with the originals appearing older and as mentors to the newbies. That way, it can give something fresh and new to the story while still keeping the original girls for fanservice.

Isn't that pretty much what Million Live is? (except for the 765pro appearing older since they are still the same age).

I'm personally not a fan of this anymore. I get it's the point of the series to raise your idols to the top, but it also means they've been telling the exact same story for ten years with the same characters.
They may be told slightly differently with different events, but the overall plot is the same every single time.

I don’t think I mind this formula.   Maybe, I got used to it?  I know I’m biased.   But, I feel like small alterations and changes (examples I mentioned in my last post) make it different enough.  Personally, I don’t want things to change too drastically because it will make things too inconsistent.  Vision 2 made some changes but things stayed consistent.

But what you’re referring to is something not limited to Idolm@ster but other game franchises that use the same characters.  It’s difficult to dramatically change certain characters without sacrificing the original appeal and portrayal that made the characters so likable and nostalgic.  Of course, there are some characters in other franchises that change dramatically and do great.  But, I don’t think this could work here.  In my opinion, just making some changes while keeping things consistent is good enough for 765pro.

I mean, in my opinion, that’s one reason why CG and ML exist.  To give people additional idols to become fans of while giving 765pro a break to make their next game.

i wish Scamco was more willing to shake up these characters.

I guess they sort of do this (ex giving idols new hobbies).  And, they add other small details to them as seen through communications.  I know this isn't what you had in mind.  But, I guess people like consistencies.

[DeviantProtagonist]

Progress shouldn't be weighed down by an old tradition for the sake of consistency. We've all come to those same resolutions time and again, but here the fundamental flaw is redundancy... the risk of no longer caring. It's been well over a decade, so I want to see change as well.

To drive this in, I want to see Chihaya's relationship with Chigusa long rekindled -- who knows what hobbies they actually share? Then, to see as photography spearheads a potential career, all while singing away... and finally adapt her former trauma to tranquility, for Yuu's sake.

I'd like to think you also would, mariokirby. The keyword in this instance is future.

Furthermore, Miki is an especially sour case -- having once been in 961, she also thought to have lost her Producer in an accident, which drove Miki to sheer responsibility. All that is basically punted from the window come 2nd Vision, which feels more like a disservice than anything.

Give us a mighty curve ball, already! For all intents and purposes, old habits can still be kept (like Miki's laziness or Takane's mystique), but just have them more subdued to appease both sides of the spectrum; the general idea is knowing things are actually heading elsewhere for once.

[MetalPredat0r]

The difference between other franchises and iM@S is that a part of iM@S is watching your idols grow as people. The problem is, while they do change, it never sticks. Because the next game just resets everything and you have to go through that same development again instead of seeing that idol after they've gone over their issues.

Like Deviant said, what would happen if Chihaya settled things once and for all with her family? What if Miki stops acting like a brat and learns some responsibility? We're never gonna see that because every game resets and tells the same story with some changes.

Isn't that pretty much what Million Live is? (except for the 765pro appearing older since they are still the same age).

Yes and no. The manga is definitely like that, but the actual game implies that all 50 girls started at the same time, making it yet another reset.

[mariokirby]

I know key word you guys are mentioning is future, so I'll address that in my 2nd paragraph.

Progress shouldn't be weighed down by an old tradition for the sake of consistency.

To drive this in, I want to see Chihaya's relationship with Chigusa long rekindled -- who knows what hobbies they actually share? Then, to see as photography spearheads a potential career, all while singing away... and finally adapt her former trauma to tranquility, for Yuu's sake.

I mean, that‘s sort of what I was trying to say.  You can add some details/changes and still keep the overall consistency of the characters.  For example, Chihaya’s rekindle relationship with her family is sort of explored in the anime where she calls her Mother during Christmas, and in One for All/Movie where she writes letters to her.  So, maybe in another game the producer can act a direct medium for Chihaya and her family by pulling them towards each other and reestablish their relationship as part of her development.  All, while on top her other character development such as singing, overcoming past, etc (basically maintaining consistency).  When they added photography it was fine because it fits her well with her character (plus finding a hobby outside of singing).

For Miki, you can still keep her consistency of laziness and finding motivation, and add something else.

The difference between other franchises and iM@S is that a part of iM@S is watching your idols grow as people. The problem is, while they do change, it never sticks. Because the next game just resets everything and you have to go through that same development again instead of seeing that idol after they've gone over their issues.

I'd like to think you also would, mariokirby. The keyword in this instance is future.

Well, that’s the thing.  This wasn’t designed to keep going and going.  Resets with new ideas helped keep the franchise going.  I mean, once they’re top idols, there isn’t much development to talk about afterwards because it already happened during their path towards top idol.  Chihaya still can rekindle a stronger relationship with her Mother as part of her development while becoming top idol.  It doesn’t have to be her future self. 

And, same thing can be said for Miki.

So, basically, adding new character development is used during a reset rather than a future time line.  I guess by doing it that way we don't see 765pro "end".  So, they can keep going.

That’s why I feel the spin-offs helped give 765pro a break since people maybe tired of seeing them.

But, as for future, that’s what ML is for because they’re the future of 765pro.  I would think people would also want to explore other idols like in CG and ML as well.

[Okayu]

I think some of the complaints here were addressed in Dearly Stars as well as the DLC routes of OFA.

With Dearly Stars since the game was from the point of view of 876 instead of as a Producer, you got to see the idols of 765 in a different light than usual. It also had some of the mentor vibes as well, for example Chihaya and Ryou.

For OFA's DLC routes they take place after the end of the in game routes. While the in game routes have their own conclusions, the DLC routes go beyond that to tell another story. I personally really enjoyed Chihaya's, and the in game route even subverts her usually focusing too much on singing by having the Producer focus on her other aspects as an idol. Something else to note is that while Chihaya's backstory is mentioned each game, the amount of time spent on it has been greatly reduced as games go on. In 1 it got a lot of focus since it was our introduction to her, in 2 the backstory itself is kept to one communication, and in OFA it's reduced to a few sentences. While the topic comes up again in the DLC route, it expands on what was presented in the original game by giving more details. Even I was pretty shocked by how it ended, but I think that it suited the themes of the route well.

Chihaya does make up with her parents, but I think part of the reason why it's such an issue having the idols interact with people outside of the group directly is they don't have models or voice actors/actresses for it. Another issue is the length of the game compared to things like the anime. In episode 7 of the 765 anime for example we're given the whole episode to see and explore Yayoi's house and family bonds, while in OFA it's reduced to a static background and a few exchanges which last about a minute.

I think the best way for Namco to get around this limitation of shortness in the base game is through things like DLC drama or commus where things can be further expanded upon.

Also we really don't know enough about the story of PS right now to know for sure if it's exactly the same or not yet.

[Yukibro]

I'm personally not a fan of this anymore. I get it's the point of the series to raise your idols to the top, but it also means they've been telling the exact same story for ten years with the same characters. Chihaya's dead brother and warming up to people, Yukiho being scared and trying to get away from that, Azusa trying to find love, etc. They may be told slightly differently with different events, but the overall plot is the same every single time.

That's pretty off, and I honestly think that's the biggest problem going forward. People think the execution has grown stale because there's an assumption that they've done everything, that no stone's been left untouched. In reality, Namco has been playing it safe since 2nd Vision blew up in their face, and I don't think that the current issues are 765's fault more than it is Namco's.

Like when you consider how much focus has shifted from 1st Vision into 2nd Vision, you'd see the problem is moreso about how 2nd Vision is handled rather than a problem with 765 overall. Let's bring Takane up from earlier, for example. I feel like 2nd Vision Takane hasn't really been established yet. They ran with the mystery and secrets persona they had for her in 1st Vision, yet the context of her as a rival has been gone for years, so I personally never got the sense of her obligations and problems being a burden to her like I saw in SP (though I haven't touched her OFA EX content yet, I should get to that). Or take Chihaya, whose 1st Vision character was more stuck between her parental issues and her stern dedication to singing that would eventually develop to address both as she moved up in the idol ranks. Yet in 2nd Vision, much of her content is focused on her brother and her mother, practically making her father a non-character. Then you look into other idol families: Yukiho's father played a pretty significant part in Yukiho's developing story in 1, but he seems more a reminder that Yukiho may or may not be yakuza nowadays. Makoto's dad plays a pretty big role in how Makoto ended up being so boyish, but 2nd Vision likes to skate around that issue enough anyway. And Iori's personal goals are pretty centered on being independent from her family, but nowadays she seems like just another rich tsundere. Hell, Miki seems a bit lost as here Awakened form proved so popular that it's basically what she becomes in most stories nowadays. And I'm pretty sure her blonde hair is legit now, too.

If there's going to be new developments or curveballs, then they should do just that, because the issue of staleness isn't because there's nothing to do with the 765 girls. Why not change up the pairings? Haruka and Chihaya are always together, so what would it hurt to have them pair up with another idol they rarely interact with? And better yet, why not have them exhibit more of their stories to said other characters and actually have them develop together? Don't just do it like the anime where everyone's always together but don't do anything, have the focus placed on the girls either alone or with someone who can complement them. In the end, proper execution can bring life back to even the stalest formulas just as much as lazy execution can make them stick out like sore thumbs. And while I do think they've done pretty well as of recent with the console games (OFA EX routes are particularly satisfying), it's iM@S in general that needs to stop being so safe and aiming just for what's expected.

I also double-dipped on PS, so you better get your stuff up to snuff, Namco

[Setsuna]

Then to add to that mix, you have the problem of risk aversion, then a whole slew of other stuff that isn't im@s related, but affects im@s anyway. (But unless you care for things such as demographics, trends, market share etc, you probably won't believe anything I'd say anyway.)

Adding new elements is a risk - and with risk you include loss.

It's stupidly easy to say now "Well, adding in the guys as idols was a stupid idea due to the backlash." mostly due to the fact that we know the result. Try figuring that out in 2011, when you're told 'Okay, now you need to come up with something new, oh, and if you get it wrong, you're fired and you're out of the industry cause no one's going to trust you.'

If anyone realistically says they can do it, then in no uncertain terms 'screw you and the high horse you think you can claim, because if you're demanding the ability to see the future as a requisite to doing a job, why the hell would they be game developers? They'd be playing the stock market, or the lottery and be making a killing there.'

So with risk, comes with rewards, but with it, comes the ability to incur a loss.

Given the costs, and the current state of NBGI and the industry as a whole, playing conservative and securing what you have is far more beneficial, because the changes would only net marginal gains, and would incur significant risk.

Like take for example pairing switchups - how many more people would you seriously expect to gain? Then take the opposite - how many people do you think you'll tick off?

(If you haven't realised yet, it's surprisingly negative.)

Now, if they changed a LOT in one go, they might have significant gains, but then again, they could suffer what happened re: im@s2. Of course, experience says they got burned significantly on that one, and like any entity, they rather not get burned twice, at least so badly.

Incidently, I'm still looking for someone who's based in Japan - I require a proxy to do some purchases, and will commission as per negotiations.

[Yukibro]

I can understand that Namco would rather risk less if it means avoiding losses as well, and I understand that judgments made in hindsight are easy considering what's happened so far. I still feel like there were some missteps made concerning 2010/2011, at least regarding the timing and tone of said announcements. I don't condemn them for risking changes back then, I just question the manner in which they handled it. This also applies less so with the move to the PS3 with the iM@S2 port not even a year after the 360 release, though the risk of losing more fans was likely taken for the reward of gaining even more fans. Namco was already jumping off the Microsoft ship anyway, so my suspicions or criticisms are more... personal, I guess.

As far as it goes with PS, I don't mind if they aren't taking risks. I would like to see what I posted above be done sometime, but I also know I'm looking at the series' first PS4 iteration and don't expect them to break out of the box so quickly, especially considering prior history with the franchise. A lot remains to be seen about the game anyway, so until then I'll be pipe-dreaming and hoping that the steps forward from OFA will continue even if it's playing safe right now.

[Setsuna]

Well, the history of im@s 1, 2 and im@s L4U is interesting, mostly because the summary of it is this: NBGI was actually offered a significant amount of money to NOT make a game, at all.

(Initially, the negotiations were to release the game on the PS2, but the PS2 didn't cut it technically, so after a bit of back and forth, Sony Japan actually put forward an offer.)

It's a bit of history of im@s that got buried in the myriad of contracts, that's the executive summary.

The reason why they jumped to MS at all in the first place was cause they were offered MORE money to beat said bribe to not make something.

The terms of the deal was for a flat period, actually, which ran out roughly a year after im@s2 Xbox 360 showed up. Even then, MS offered a deal, but Sony offered a better one, and we have im@s where it is right now.

The amount of money that was offered wasn't chump change either. Portions of the deal cut by Sony and MS show up in the relevant balance sheets, under Other income (if I recall correctly) and if you read it, you'll actually see a line item in the Other item list which is extremely outlandish, and this is where the contract part of the deal was booked.

The long and short of the whole 'jumping ship' was one of technology improvements, and ironically, various sides paying lots of money to NOT do anything (Sony for im@s 1/L4U/2, Microsoft for 2/OFA) as they were trying to convince NBGI to wait for new technology for this franchise (Among other things of course).

NBGI didn't take the bait, but we were surprisingly closer than you'd think to im@s radio silence, and a couple of debut games for a console or two.

[mariokirby]

@Okayu

Thanks, for your input.  You brought up some good points about the idols not having much direct interactions outside the group since other characters (like family members) don't have character models or voice actors.

Something else to note is that while Chihaya's backstory is mentioned each game, the amount of time spent on it has been greatly reduced as games go on. In 1 it got a lot of focus since it was our introduction to her, in 2 the backstory itself is kept to one communication, and in OFA it's reduced to a few sentences. While the topic comes up again in the DLC route, it expands on what was presented in the original game by giving more details.

I think I recall in im@s 2 that there were several communications regarding her backstory such as couple scenes losing her voice, graveyard scene, even the Okayu scene (not you, I meant the food) where she first reveals about her little brother’s passed away. 

As for One for All, I had the impression that Chihaya’s full story was purposely split into 2 parts.  The first part being about growth and finding herself outside of singing.  And, the second part about overcoming Chihaya’s past (Ex episodes).  I mean, I don’t like separating them both since I felt both were important for Chihaya’s full development.  In Idolm@ster 2, I recall her route does sort of delve into those two parts (both the singing and past).  I just felt that One for All kind of splits it, so that they can sell the other half of Chihaya’s development as DLC.



@Yukibro and Setsuna

You do bring up some good points.  I think the take home message you guys brought up for this entire discussion is that companies usually play it safe (because making money with less risk is the route that companies usually take).