Project-iM@S

Important stuff => Rules & News => Topic started by: Yunabeco on March 05, 2015, 11:05:47 PM

Title: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Yunabeco on March 05, 2015, 11:05:47 PM
Hey folks,

Surprise to all, I have the privilege of welcoming Okayu (http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php?action=profile;u=3178) on the global moderators team.
I'd say "get along" but I'm pretty sure you already have, since he's an active member of the community.
He has interesting input on the current state of the forum and wiki and how it could be made more user-friendly. You're probably going to notice a couple changes soon enough that head in this direction.

At the same time, in an effort to allow more input to come in, I've enabled guest posting on the forum. Depending on how this turns out, I may enable guest wiki editing in the near future.

I won't be locking this right away, so feel free to speak your mind here.

Cheers!

Oh, and he wasn't promoted because he was a Chihaya fan. Nope. Nuh-uh. Not at all.


EDIT (2015-03-07):
Guest posting has been authorized in the iM@S category (excluding request boards), and the Wiki Discussion board.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 05, 2015, 11:27:23 PM
Not quite a surprise, given his resourcefulness. Here's to fonder days to come -- and more to our Chihaya Revolution, just because. :3

In regards to guest posting, I'll have to reflect on this more. Wouldn't it be better for people to register so there's more involvement within the community?

Come to think of it, though, I personally don't find wiki guests a good idea; may leave the door wide open for vandals.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2015, 12:13:23 AM
Quote
I personally don't find wiki guests a good idea; may leave the door wide open for vandals.
I wouldn't worry about that. Sure, you might get vandalism, but the chances of that are pretty slim. This is neither a particularly large nor controversial wiki; no offense, but do you really think anyone would care enough to vandalize it, let alone have any reason to?

Besides, I think you're underestimating how lazy the typical internet user is. Making an account really doesn't take much effort, but it's a psychological barrier that would stop most people from making a minor contribution. "Oh, I can add this thing — I have to sign in? Ugh, fuck it, someone else will do it...". The same principle that keeps vandals away ends up having the same effect on potential contributors, too.

Of course, the pool of potential anonymous contributors probably isn't any bigger than the pool of potential vandals, but either way, what's the worst that can happen if the wiki is opened to guests? A vandal shows up, a few pages have to be rolled back to previous versions, it gets made users-only again, end of experiment. Why not give it a try?

Also, two captchas for guest posting? And name, and email? Damn, son, maybe it actually would be less work to sign up.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Okayu on March 06, 2015, 12:25:01 AM
Hello, I'm Okayu. Hope things go well. I'm not really sure what else to say
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 06, 2015, 12:50:52 AM
For having honest intentions, you'll do fine, Okayu.

I wouldn't worry about that. Sure, you might get vandalism, but the chances of that are pretty slim. This is neither a particularly large nor controversial wiki; no offense, but do you really think anyone would care enough to vandalize it, let alone have any reason to?

Besides, I think you're underestimating how lazy the typical internet user is. Making an account really doesn't take much effort, but it's a psychological barrier that would stop most people from making a minor contribution. "Oh, I can add this thing — I have to sign in? Ugh, fuck it, someone else will do it...". The same principle that keeps vandals away ends up having the same effect on potential contributors, too.

Of course, the pool of potential anonymous contributors probably isn't any bigger than the pool of potential vandals, but either way, what's the worst that can happen if the wiki is opened to guests? A vandal shows up, a few pages have to be rolled back to previous versions, it gets made users-only again, end of experiment. Why not give it a try?

Also, two captchas for guest posting? And name, and email? Damn, son, maybe it actually would be less work to sign up.

If there's anything for people to invest time into, there are those who'd want to break that norm -- it doesn't matter how trivial it is from the broader spectrum, that's just how the internet works -- trolls abound. In fairness this could be given the benefit of the doubt, especially with the idea that roll-backs are possible. We'd have to see how it pans out, then~.

In regards to registrations turning people away, that depends more on the person. I'd like to think the average user can get by a one-time process, namely if their commitment shows a hand. Overall, my thoughts are still tentative on the matter so as mentioned I'll reflect more. What I will give you, however, are the captchas. Found that a nuisance, myself. :P
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: MetalPredat0r on March 06, 2015, 01:00:31 AM
Hello, I'm Okayu. Hope things go well. I'm not really sure what else to say

Congratulations on the promotion, man!

As for guest posting, this could end either one of two ways. Either this could open the doors for the forums' overall community to grow or it could open the gates of hell and create a massive surplus of sh*tposting. I'm personally completely open to the idea of guest posting and even guest editing (the amount of edits and contributions I want to make are growing....) as long as they can work out for the better.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: ChocoCats on March 06, 2015, 01:30:08 AM
Congrats. Screw Chihaya though Getting f***ing sick of her

Please state the "changes to make the forum and wiki more user-friendly" more specifically. I'm curious.

Guest posting on the forums. That depends. Wiki, hell no.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 06, 2015, 03:44:01 AM
I wouldn't liken it to the gates of hell so much as potential shitposting, as far as normal guest accounts go. Either way, moderation will need to be emphasized. As it is, the hell part would more than likely suffice with wiki guests.

Congrats. Screw Chihaya though Getting f***ing sick of her

Please state the "changes to make the forum and wiki more user-friendly" more specifically. I'm curious.

A little too hostile, there. Regardless, I'm also curious for the specifics since we're better off knowing.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: JNiles on March 06, 2015, 05:00:56 AM
I'm against guest posting.  I've had enough trouble across various forums with people who are brave enough to attach a name to an account, let alone anonymous posters.  It also makes it harder to follow a discussion when multiple guests are posting in the same thread.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Cael K. on March 06, 2015, 05:06:36 AM
I'm against guest posting.  I've had enough trouble across various forums with people who are brave enough to attach a name to an account, let alone anonymous posters.  It also makes it harder to follow a discussion when multiple guests are posting in the same thread.

Likewise on principle, but it sure would be nice if I were wrong. There've been a few spammers here.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 06, 2015, 05:24:18 AM
Very valid points, actually. Anonymity is a big worry, but if we were to have multiple guests, how would we differentiate amongst them?
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: altuixde on March 06, 2015, 06:20:49 AM
if we were to have multiple guests, how would we differentiate amongst them?

Guests must choose a name before posting. Anonymous (who posted earlier here (http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php/topic,2253.msg58627.html#msg58627)) probably chose the name Anonymous, and I think that only someone with the email address that Anonymous provided can use the name Anonymous.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2015, 10:42:31 AM
Quote from: JNiles
let alone anonymous posters
You callin' me a coward, buddy?

Quote from: altuixde
Anonymous probably chose the name
Yep. I didn't mean to cause any confusion; both a name and an email are required to post.

Quote from: altuixde
I think that only someone with the email address that Anonymous provided can use the name Anonymous.
If this post works, then that's not true. But how many guest posters do you think you're going to have?

Also, regarding spam, have you seen your captchas?

(http://puu.sh/goDh7.png)
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Naryoril on March 06, 2015, 11:09:07 AM
uhhmm... that last part of the captacha... (http://www.xanis.ch/images/ugly.gif)
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: liza94 on March 06, 2015, 02:21:56 PM
I think allowing guests to post is a good idea. I've seen the member list and most of the accounts have one or two posts (or don't have any).
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Saturos on March 06, 2015, 02:39:01 PM
(http://puu.sh/goDh7.png)

Oh, that's great. loooool
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Maka on March 06, 2015, 04:29:53 PM
Congrats on the modship! Okayu already contributes a ton to this community so they're an awesome choice.

I've been on a forum that has anon posting without incident for YEARS, so here's what works for them:
-Some degree of accountability. Members can be IP banned (or at the very least publicly laughed at) for sockpuppetry and spamming under anon.
-Certain sections locked for anon posters. I'm mostly thinking the request sections, because those would be really easy to exploit. A lot of people sign up solely to request anyways lol
-Incentives to signing up; being anon is temporary for most people. Stuff like viewing your posts and having an avatar is enough for most people, though.

As for anonymous wiki editing... I dunno. That seems like a can of worms.

that captcha's been on the wiki for ages lol
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 06, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
As far as board restrictions go, the request sections are an absolute must. It'd be a feeding frenzy with little-to-no gain, otherwise.

More to the captchas, it's precisely the reason why this can understandably turn off users -- it's too much a drag even with Wiki links. I'd very much do without those secondary questions, if anything.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: liza94 on March 06, 2015, 07:05:41 PM
I don't understand why should request boards should be locked for guests. What is the point in registering if a person simply makes a request, thanks another person who fulfilled it, and forgets about the forum?
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: MetalPredat0r on March 06, 2015, 07:26:41 PM
I don't understand why should request boards should be locked for guests. What is the point in registering if a person simply makes a request, thanks another person who fulfilled it, and forgets about the forum?

To prevent people from spamming the request boards with multiple requests. Keep in mind that the requests are handled by very few people with limited time and budgets and all these guests just spamming the requests thread would bring stress that isn't needed.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: liza94 on March 06, 2015, 07:33:11 PM
To prevent people from spamming the request boards with multiple requests. Keep in mind that the requests are handled by very few people with limited time and budgets and all these guests just spamming the requests thread would bring stress that isn't needed.

But no one makes those people fulfill requests so I don't understand reasons for stress.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: ChocoCats on March 06, 2015, 08:13:19 PM
But no one makes those people fulfill requests so I don't understand reasons for stress.

Guess you haven't read Setsuna's Resignation request thread then...
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Yunabeco on March 06, 2015, 08:46:57 PM
Thank you all for your input. I'll dump some points from my mind here.

I reckon anonymity makes it harder to follow discussions and brings many other potential problems to the table. In retrospection, that was a great change out of practically nowhere.
That said, I'd like to tone it down but give it a chance for a while, and turn it off if it shows little purpose in terms of discussion quantity and quality.
Moreover, I propose to restrict guest posting inside the iM@S categories, and outside request boards -- that said, if you do handle requests and are okay with receiving those, don't hesitate to chime up. Setsuna has stopped for the time being.

More to the captchas, it's precisely the reason why this can understandably turn off users -- it's too much a drag even with Wiki links. I'd very much do without those secondary questions, if anything.

Thanks Deviant for your comments. I'm not a UX designer, but I do realize it's a bit of a turn off when it comes to using the forum and wiki.
We had practically no spam since I turned it on, so I thought it was a good idea at the time -- I'll try tuning things down a notch and see how it goes.

Please state the "changes to make the forum and wiki more user-friendly" more specifically. I'm curious.
By "changes to make the forum and wiki more user-friendly", most things are related to the wiki, namely:
I was also thinking of simply merging the forum and wiki userbase, something that was proposed a while ago on my Talk Page, but this proves to be both technically challenging and potentially detrimental to experience, since a wiki contributor is not always a forum poster. And it doesn't bode well with my conscience since I'm more of a SoC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_concerns) guy.

The majority of the interest of the site is directed at the wiki (something I didn't imagine that when I set it up. Thanks, Google).

Still, I don't want the forum to fall into total oblivion. I'm looking for things I can do to make the experience more enjoyable for us all.

I'll try not to rush things. I apologize for the surprise.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on March 06, 2015, 09:03:06 PM
Thanks for the share, Yunabeco. Having this restricted to the iM@S categories is an interesting proposal, since they're relevant to the main focus of the forum. Plus, if guests wished to engage in casual discussion outside the categories, then they'd come to show their true selves as members -- it'll serve as a doorway of sorts. I'll see what others think on it.

But no one makes those people fulfill requests so I don't understand reasons for stress.

You don't know that. People undergoing request handling can get their share of prodding, to put it lightly. As mentioned, look to Setsuna's thread (http://forum.project-imas.com/index.php/topic,2217.0.html) please.

Guest accounts would not work with the request boards by any stretch of the imagination; it would be detrimental to having guests participate within the community when they could only do so much as leave some iM@S coordinates then buzz off. While it's true people often sign up to only post requests, it at least gives us leverage to organize things better.

That brings me to another issue with request guests; sockpuppeting, or otherwise a user working with multiple accounts to further their gain. We hardly have a way to discern different guests from a glance, so what's stopping the shady ones from requesting more than they're allowed to? Furthermore, it'd only be a hassle to moderate -- and by that, I mean constantly.

Overall, the cons outweigh the ill-existent positives so to even attempt this just isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: MetalPredat0r on March 06, 2015, 09:13:53 PM
By "changes to make the forum and wiki more user-friendly", most things are related to the wiki, namely:
  • Making the wiki Main Page lighter (it looks pretty nice since the November/December revamping, but it's still the greatest resource hog of the site by a landslide)
  • Making it the actual home page of project-imas.com, while still trying to keep some emphasis on the forum
  • Have and maintain news about recent iM@S-related events, why not with a calendar

I have been thinking, maybe the page layout could be closer to, say, SmashWiki. Mainly with how the news is laid out right on the front page for all to read. Here's what I'm talking about with the page link: http://www.ssbwiki.com/

Like, perhaps make navigation a bit easier by linking to different categories on the wiki. Just my suggestions.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Maka on March 07, 2015, 12:14:16 AM
But no one makes those people fulfill requests so I don't understand reasons for stress.
Shockingly people don't like being made to feel like tools for getting a quick video. They're not just machines that poop out requests at a lightning pace. Imagine every time you log on to a site you get 50 requests and very few thanks for not bowing to said requests. It's a PAIN, and I don't even fill requests.

Idk, I think anon posting could be something worth trying but whether or not we keep it depends on the outcome. I definitely think anon wiki editing is out of the picture though. There are like 3 people who check it on a regular basis and it's hard to keep trash edits off the wiki should they become a problem... Just look at the Gracie fiasco. A user (who actually turned out to be like a 9 year old kid) kept editing pages with flagrantly incorrect and overall terrible stuff, and reverting all her edits was a NIGHTMARE. It ended up taking like 2 weeks to fix. And there have been a couple of people who basically grudge edited stuff and vandalized.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Setsuna on March 07, 2015, 08:05:17 AM
I'll quickly weigh in (before I get back to work on something related to this forum) with a simple example why anon posting in certain areas (like requests) would not be advised.

Link removed, as it has been cleaned up as per Byuusan's request.

I could break it down for you, but that is pretty much an example of an expected abuse scenario. We had a poster who tried turning anonymous to get a request in a hit and run action after being told not to post there.

Cleanup has been arranged, after contacting him directly. He will handle the rest, I'm just doing janitorial duties right now.

On a side note, If you figure out what I'm doing, and you want to know why, the answer is 'Someone has paid me to do it'. The person paying has requested anonymity.

The expected rollout period is to be a week or so, pending the progress of the work. I will most likely be requesting a withdrawl of my resignation once that period has ended. We'll see though.

Edit: I've found out he can lock his thread, it's just that he doesn't want to due to monthlyish updates. I learnt something new today.  I'll clean up that thread as per his requests in the next few hours, after I finish this batch.

Edit2: Contact made, actioned as per his request.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Yunabeco on March 07, 2015, 10:07:31 AM
Good luck and godspeed.

For now, concerning guest posting, I have updated the permission sets to authorize guest posting in the iM@S category (excluding request boards) as well as the Wiki Discussion board (different user bases and all that).
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Amazing_Grace on March 11, 2015, 05:55:02 PM
May as well throw in my two cents.

Congratulations on being promoted to mod, Okayu!
As far as guest posting, I think it's relatively harmless. I do, however, agree that it should be restricted as far as request boards go. I appreciate all the work people put in to requests, and it almost feels unfair to allow guests to just throw in their requests and run off. While nothing is stopping them from making an account just to request (and MANY people have done this, I'm positive of it), at least it will discourage the lazy folks who don't want to put in the trouble of making an account.

I'm not calling all guests lazy, I'm saying I'm sure there are some who are. Still, I don't think guests are particularly harmful. If someone is just breezing by and they spot a topic they'd like to throw their two cents into, but they don't feel the need to join since this topic is their only real interest, I believe it should be fine to allow them to do that without making them make an account.

Although the capchas do go away eventually if you're a member and I don't know if they do for guests, so it might be worth it to make an actual account just for that. :P
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: Yunabeco on April 26, 2015, 08:27:50 PM
Thank you all for your contributions. I've restored registration requirement for all boards except Wiki discussion.

On a side note, a couple restrictions have been lifted on the wiki to make life better for registered members.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: ChocoCats on April 27, 2015, 06:20:33 PM
Well, that's why we can't have nice things. Guess it's partially my fault for that.  :-\

I'm curious what the restrictions are, though those guest reportings I'm seeing are concerning...
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: MetalPredat0r on April 27, 2015, 06:51:37 PM
Thank you all for your contributions. I've restored registration requirement for all boards except Wiki discussion.

On a side note, a couple restrictions have been lifted on the wiki to make life better for registered members.

Well, that's why we can't have nice things. Guess it's partially my fault for that.  :-\

I'm curious what the restrictions are, though those guest reportings I'm seeing are concerning...

At least we can all say that we tried. Can't say it ended off "well", but it was an experiment, nonetheless.
Title: Re: Guest posting and new moderator
Post by: DeviantProtagonist on April 27, 2015, 07:14:22 PM
The assessment was bound to present a can of worms, but some good did come from it, what with having someone like Steve. Great guy.

though those guest reportings I'm seeing are concerning...

In what nature does this entail? Anything off with the wiki?