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Author Topic: I Hate Other iM@S derived works  (Read 15516 times)

Maka

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 10:31:43 PM »
I will say that although I greatly dislike Ryou and I have a lot of Cinderella Girls I adore, I would much rather have a Dearly Stars game with some actual effort and direction then a Cinderella Girls game. Solely for Eri. plus said CG game would probably focus on the new generations trio who are as interesting as skim milk I dunno, I feel like it's a Persona vs. main series Megaten thing where they should share concepts and "technically" be part of the same series, but be separate...? Does that make sense?

@MetalPredat0r It's not just you and I, a lot of (western, I don't know anyone in the Japanese fandom) people I know who are familiar with ML are really put off by it as well. Both games are equally fanservicey, it's just that ML gets a lot weirder and grosser with it.

(Also was it necessary to have a "sexy golfing" card. Really.)

animagic4u

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 10:33:41 PM »
Anyone in this thread who is hating on something they haven't played should get out.

Okayu

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 10:43:19 PM »
Y'know, I did some thinking about it and I figured out why even the quirk-less CG characters feel so bland. In main idolmaster games, the characters develop VERY slowly and realistically. You go through dozens of lessons and spend almost an entire year together before Yukiho gets over her shyness or Chihaya slowly starts to accept her brother's death.
But meanwhile in CG (ML is better with this) each character gets like twenty lines or so. You can't cram any closeness or intimacy into that. Some characters develop through mangas and extra cards, but could I tell you the first thing about Ranko's family situation? What Uzuki likes to do for fun? Rin's hopes and dreams? No. Not only that, what character arcs exist are very small and resolved in just a few cards. Kanako's disbelief that she can become an idol? Nah, taken care of once you fuse her. Maybe it will change with the anime... Hopefully.

This is a good point. I had noticed this myself in the past and it becomes even more obvious when you see how reduced 765 was. I'm thankful they started out in an arcade game and not a mobile game for starters.  ::) It's also why I can't really comment on CG or ML. They just aren't very detailed at the moment and most if not all of them are designed to want the Producer. While it's true in the past idols have had feelings, it'd be interesting to see an idol who wants a strictly professional relationship. Chihaya has had moments where she rejects Producer, like telling him to stop his delusions in SP, but she's pretty fond of him as well even in SP.

But... Like... I still like CG for reasons I'm not sure of. It has that "something", and if you don't get that "something" then the games will be pretty crappy for you.
If you can't say why you like it or what that "something" is that's pretty troubling. I could go on about what I like in imas but that's off topic.

Also DS would have been really good if they made it a visual novel/light novel/manga (therefore eliminating the awful gameplay) and cut out Ryou's entire ridiculous ripped-right-from-a-bad-manga "IM A BOY BUT NO ONE KNOWS DUE TO INCREDIBLY CONTRIVED CIRCUMSTANCES" route. I feel like the only person who really dislikes Ryou tbh. Like... The only interesting part of him is his "secret". which has been done in 5000 awful harem mangas.

tl;dr cg is too fast-moving with character development but has a certain charm, ml's girls are good but the game is really gross and creepy, and eri and ai are great characters who need a better game someday
DS actually has three manga which are translated. I will not comment on how good the game is or not. I agree that Ryou is probably the weakest of the three DS and thanks to him we got Jupiter and SideM. Male idols aren't bad, but it's certainly not what I got into a galge for. I did like Chihaya's appearance in DS, that bullying in that party commu was really rough however. One thing I liked about DS is they seemed to have good harmony.

Hibiki and Takane's reveal was nothing short of perfect for me. It was a great way to sell people on SP, and it tied into the story. Granted, these two characters had been planned since the beginning of the series, but time and effort was put into them. With CG, NBGI left it in the hands of fans to pick and decide based off of looks alone. We never even got to hear their voices. It's a good way to alienate a ton of fans, because they could see first hand the popularity contest between all these uninspired idols, and perhaps many didn't agree with them.

I just want developers to put work into what makes them money. It disgusts me when mobile crap becomes successful. It's cheap, it's lazy, and it's exploitative.
It doesn't fit with the points I made. I just never liked it because how they shoehorned in some shota character, and how Eri is forever trapped with those two lesser idols. It wasn't a very good game to begin with, really.
I agree the way Takane and Hibiki were introduced was great. A bit too great in fact considering they haven't been written as well since. I'm very disappointed with how they've been writing Takane in particular thus far. DS also wasn't so bad as they got plenty of focus while still including 765 and it gave us a perspective switch which we hadn't had since L4U.
I've actually heard that japanese fans were comparing idolmaster 2 to AKB before it's release thinking that the idols were being split into four groups. Funny enough CG reminds me more of it with the paid polls and voting who gets to do what next. Honestly I think it's bad for people being attached to a game just because one idol matches their niche. With vision 1 everyone got a route each game. With CG most of those girls won't even be voiced, let alone get a route one day.
ML is done by the anime staff, you know the ones who couldn't even write 765 properly. From what I've seen from ML it's like they're trying their hardest to be interesting but failing.
Honestly a lot of these idols just aren't interesting even at the concept stage. Of course when I mention that someone goes on about how 765 sucks and that I should be adoring every idol just because they're a part of idolmaster now.

I don't really mind the fan service really but that seems to be an unpopular opinion.
@animagic4u
As stated I did play both of these games for a fair amount of time.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 10:47:57 PM by Okayu »

MetalPredat0r

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 11:05:31 PM »
This is a good point. I had noticed this myself in the past and it becomes even more obvious when you see how reduced 765 was. I'm thankful they started out in an arcade game and not a mobile game for starters.  ::) It's also why I can't really comment on CG or ML. They just aren't very detailed at the moment and most if not all of them are designed to want the Producer. While it's true in the past idols have had feelings, it'd be interesting to see an idol who wants a strictly professional relationship. Chihaya has had moments where she rejects Producer, like telling him to stop his delusions in SP, but she's pretty fond of him as well even in SP.

ML is done by the anime staff, you know the ones who couldn't even write 765 properly. From what I've seen from ML it's like they're trying their hardest to be interesting but failing.
Honestly a lot of these idols just aren't interesting even at the concept stage. Of course when I mention that someone goes on about how 765 sucks and that I should be adoring every idol just because they're a part of idolmaster now.

I do strongly disagree about ML. I dunno, I think it's because I was introduced to iM@S via the anime so I'm kinda used to how the characters were done there, whereas you guys were probably around since the days of L4U and SP where you are used to how characters were there. It's different strokes for different blokes.

However, I do have one thing that might explain why I have more of an idealistic viewpoint over a lot of these characters (as in, everyone in ML and some of CG): potential. Yes, this may seem like a very weird argument to make and I might actually get a few people either disagreeing or decrying me by saying "They should've done that from the get-go" but hear me out first. I feel that quite a number of these characters have the potential to be done well if you write them well. If you know what to do with these characters and with how they act. For example, some might be turned off by Miku Maekawa's cat-like antics or Kotoha Tanaka's stress-induced moments. What some might see as one-off gimmicks, I see more as tools for expansion. That's why I'm excited for the Cinderella Girls anime, provided they don't screw that up. It gives off an opportunity to write these characters in a way we would have never expect. Maybe Anzu could have some more potential than we thought. Can I say this for everyone, though? HELL NO! I will agree, again, that CG especially has some characters that you can do..........pretty much NOTHING with, which feels like a damn shame.

That's my weird argument, anyway.
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Yukibro

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 11:09:53 PM »
It's kinda hard for me to say anything that hasn't been said already, but I'll try to draw from my own experience here.

People have already mentioned the shotgun approach Scamco has taken with CG, but ML (which has a personally more annoying problem of getting a ridiculous push) also seems to inherit the idea that you're going for simple, one-note appeal to get people interested. More importantly, the breaking point for me when comparing iM@S (as just 765) and mobage is that the former had to start off humbly. I'm sure you guys would agree that there's definite work put into them from the arcade version to now, and even if the path has been pretty rocky, there's more to the original idols than one or two appeals and maybe a unique design or two. Then you have to consider the two mobage we have now (since I'm not going to bother SM, that's far beyond any of my interest). You have CG which managed to hit a huge popularity boom to the point where it might as well be a separate entity, being filled with many one-note idols as they attempt to find someone or something that sticks. ML actually bothers me more, though, being the child of both Scamco and A-1 born with a silver spoon in its mouth. Whether it's due to the massive work done with ML in such short time or due to the laziness with CG, the fact that a year passed and ML has received 10+ CDs, live concerts, game DLC, and even a noticeable role in the first iM@S movie is just ridiculous to me.

What I think bothers me the most is that the mobage don't seem to have a soul. I don't get that same sense of passion or effort that I would with 765 because it's either so fleeting with so many other idols (CG) or can't even strike out on its own without riding on coattails (ML). I still haven't even gotten to the designs, which I think are approaching Touhou levels of goofy and don't mesh at all with the subdued (but still odd, admittedly) environment from original iM@S. They feel less like characters and more like caricatures, whether through their personalities or designs. I'm already concerned that the original idols have periods of inconsistency and exaggeration, so there's no way I can deal with more than three times that amount. I know it's bias on my part, and I'm not afraid to admit it, but I just can't get behind what amounts to incredibly simple methods of making new characters and making money. All these mobage feel like fads, honestly, and I'm curious to see how long they can last.

It doesn't fit with the points I made. I just never liked it because how they shoehorned in some shota character, and how Eri is forever trapped with those two lesser idols. It wasn't a very good game to begin with, really.

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with Ai? I can probably guess what it is, but out of my limited experience with DS, the only one I can say I dislike is Ryou (for much the same reasons you guys mentioned already).

Maka

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2014, 11:23:12 PM »
People have already mentioned the shotgun approach Scamco has taken with CG, but ML (which has a personally more annoying problem of getting a ridiculous push) also seems to inherit the idea that you're going for simple, one-note appeal to get people interested. More importantly, the breaking point for me when comparing iM@S (as just 765) and mobage is that the former had to start off humbly. I'm sure you guys would agree that there's definite work put into them from the arcade version to now, and even if the path has been pretty rocky, there's more to the original idols than one or two appeals and maybe a unique design or two. Then you have to consider the two mobage we have now (since I'm not going to bother SM, that's far beyond any of my interest). You have CG which managed to hit a huge popularity boom to the point where it might as well be a separate entity, being filled with many one-note idols as they attempt to find someone or something that sticks. ML actually bothers me more, though, being the child of both Scamco and A-1 born with a silver spoon in its mouth. Whether it's due to the massive work done with ML in such short time or due to the laziness with CG, the fact that a year passed and ML has received 10+ CDs, live concerts, game DLC, and even a noticeable role in the first iM@S movie is just ridiculous to me.
YES! This too! I think that's why I'm annoyed by ML so much. CG managed to grow into its own thing with only a tiny push of "hey it's 765 girls too!" but a year+ later ML is still relying on the main series... Which sucks because a lot of the ML characters could do really well on their own without 765 propping them up.

I also don't like the trend of making the characters who are essentially 765 idols PART TWO. See Fuuka (who is basically Azusa with more focus on boobs) and the entire "main trio" in each mobage. DS managed to make characters that were pretty interesting... Even though Ai seems like a Haruka clone at first (which is why I think not a lot of people like her, including me in the beginning), they're all unique with interesting struggles, and not just "Chihaya BUT IMPROVED!" or whatever.

Also it's neither here nor there, but the main cast has managed to be around for 9 years without getting boring or played out. I admit I had a part a few months ago where I was all "I'm so bored of 765pro!", but that passed.

Although I would say that Leon is really kind of a lost opportunity. don't hurt me.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:27:24 PM by Maka »

Okayu

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2014, 11:26:25 PM »
I also don't like the trend of making the characters who are essentially 765 idols PART TWO. See Fuuka (who is basically Azusa with more focus on boobs) and the entire "main trio" in each mobage. DS managed to make characters that were pretty interesting... Even though Ai seems like a Haruka clone at first (which is why I think not a lot of people like her, including me in the beginning), they're all unique with interesting struggles, and not just "Chihaya BUT IMPROVED!" or whatever.
At first glance Ai made me think of a mix of Haruka and Yayoi. What would be an "improved" Chihaya, with breasts?

As for Leon I'd say it depends how she's handled in the rest of the EX episodes. While in the game she seemed kind of not so interesting, they seem to be trying to flesh her out somewhat in the bonus routes which makes sense considering she's a world class idol.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:29:57 PM by Okayu »

Maka

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2014, 11:31:21 PM »
I kinda misworded that. I meant more like... Rin and Shizuka are supposed to be the New Chihaya, like Mirai and Uzuki are supposed to be the New Haruka.

Ai's a lot like a more energetic Haruka, but she also has a lot of deep-seated anxieties and insecurities that contrast with her "go and get it!" personality.

Yukibro

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2014, 11:32:32 PM »
Although I would say that Leon is really kind of a lost opportunity. don't hurt me.

I don't think she's lost yet. The DLC episodes have had her appear at the end of each, so she was likely intended to be a post-game character due to her high ranking and popularity in-universe. Whether she'll be worth the wait is another thing.

Ai's a lot like a more energetic Haruka, but she also has a lot of deep-seated anxieties and insecurities that contrast with her "go and get it!" personality.

On that note, Ai is more like a mix between Haruka and Yukiho.

Okayu

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2014, 11:32:58 PM »
I kinda misworded that. I meant more like... Rin and Shizuka are supposed to be the New Chihaya, like Mirai and Uzuki are supposed to be the New Haruka.
I'd say that's more of a role than personality then.

Scotty

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2014, 11:36:34 PM »
I still haven't even gotten to the designs, which I think are approaching Touhou levels of goofy and don't mesh at all with the subdued (but still odd, admittedly) environment from original iM@S. They feel less like characters and more like caricatures, whether through their personalities or designs. I'm already concerned that the original idols have periods of inconsistency and exaggeration, so there's no way I can deal with more than three times that amount. I know it's bias on my part, and I'm not afraid to admit it, but I just can't get behind what amounts to incredibly simple methods of making new characters and making money.

I'm just going to quote this because of how on the money it is. So it bears repeating.

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with Ai? I can probably guess what it is, but out of my limited experience with DS, the only one I can say I dislike is Ryou (for much the same reasons you guys mentioned already).

You know why. She's an apple-headed Haruka clone.

ninjamitsuki

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 12:12:39 AM »
I'm also not a fan of Cinderella Girls because the characters just feel like gimmicks. I do like a lot of the characters in Million Live, they feel more like the main idols, but the fanservice is kind of... Yeah.

I do like SideM seeing as how that's pretty much the only choice with male idols, I just wish it could have been done as a portable vita game first or something instead of relying on "CARD GAME!!!1"

SakuraMaxX

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2014, 01:08:36 AM »
I do like SideM seeing as how that's pretty much the only choice with male idols, I just wish it could have been done as a portable vita game first or something instead of relying on "CARD GAME!!!1"

Uta no Prince-sama (which seems to be the popular choice), Boyfriend Kari (though that one's a card collectage too)

animagic4u

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2014, 02:35:05 AM »
I like Million Live, a lot. I play almost every single day.

The game itself is a commonly used formula; it isn't special by any means. The characters are kind of interesting to me and I enjoyed reading the comics and the stories for each event to learn more about them. I welcome the fan service. In fact, one of my favorite tags was exploited in a recent event and since it is kind of rare, I was very happy to see it

I've been able to get what I want from every single event without having to spend money, so other than the ガシャ I don't feel like there is any motivation to spend money on the game.

Maybe it should be re-stated that ML is a social game. The social aspect is really what makes this game fun in a way I can't really explain.
In fact the only reason why I continue to play is the social aspect.

DeviantProtagonist

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Re: I Hate Other iM@S Games
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2014, 03:33:31 AM »
I welcome the fan service.

For what it's worth I thought I was the only one -- it is what it is and it's only that -- nothing to get worked up over, really. :P
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