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Author Topic: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.  (Read 11046 times)

Setsuna

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The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« on: November 17, 2011, 04:28:38 PM »
For those who missed it (or haven't been paying attention) here's a partial summary by those much smarter than I (Some who I pay significant amounts of money to consult) and just have you read it.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/10/sopa-hollywood-finally-gets-chance-break-Internet
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/10/house-takes-senates-bad-internet-censorship-bill-makes-it-worse.ars
http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/11/the-architecture-of-the-internet.html

Now, why would we care? I mean this is an im@s request forum and it's hardly like we're going to go on a piracy spree-

Wait a second...

For those who want to wrangle the legal, they're free to try, but I'll sum up what will (and I'm not kidding, despite how sarastic I can carry myself) happen if (or when, it seems) the law passes:

No im@s requests will be permitted to be filled. I'm an Australian citizen, but considering that uh, Obama was just here yesterday and the Australian PM was kissing his feet, do I feel lucky enough to not get wrapped up and posted to the US?

For those who don't know, there's a 5 year federal prison attachment for anyone streaming copyrighted material over the internet without permission. No, you read it right the first time. On the bright side, I live in Australia, so the extradition proceedings could take quite a while at least, or at least enough time for me to pack up and run. For anyone in the US, no such luck

No, I could probably ask really, REALLY nicely for copyright permission, and it'd still take me 12 months or more to even get considered for such a legal waver. No bets if I could get a yes, either.

Furthermore youtube will most likely have to pull down all the video that's been distributed so far.

Any attempt to circumvent it will involve credit card companies pulling the plug on the site and more scarily from the interpetations I've read, on SPECIFIC USERS if necessary. I like mastercard processing my import payments, thank you very much.

Now, why would this matter to a Japanese game, with japanese companies, if we shift it offshore?

Because there is a little note which says that they are to target users OUTSIDE THE US explicitly. If anyone complains to someone in the US, they can do it. Now, guess who has im@s rights in the US? It's... Sony.

Essentially? Being outside the United States does not protect you - they will delist the site you're on (before you think about hosting your own place to run videos) from all DNS servers (ICANN is compelled to remove your registery listing) and well, go after you, and the ISP economically.

As well, 5 years federal prison is a lot of fun. Well, if you like dates in prison anyway.

Oh, and before I forget, if the action is done in error, it doesn't matter as long as they can prove sufficent belief they're doing the right thing. Well, to be precise, belief that there is copyright infringement on hand. They're not liable for any damage going forward.

Essentially, even Nico Nico Douga isn't protected much, unless NBGI EXPLICTLY gives them a waver in writing, and more to the point, that Sony in the US don't accidently put in an instruction regardless. You've got uh, 5 days to mount a defense and counterfile. You'll need to be fast, and there's a significant legal risk in this (Cause you may not win, obviously for one) and it's not cheap.

There's more to it, but I'll just reiterate - this is too important to go 'Eh it's politics' and just let it slide. Get involved, and get angry. It's not there yet, but well, it's going to be voted on in a couple of months.

If you DON'T do anything about it, I can pack my ball and go home and get binocculars and watch. I'm not sure about most other people though.

I can't emphasise how screwed up it is (and that's speaking from a perspective who's been in the IP law game for quite a while) and that the scenario isn't exactly the worst case. (Yep, there's further vulnerablities in the law in question, and the scenarios above are NOT the worst things you can in theory execute with it.*)

You're free to disbelieve, but well, if you're not willing to defend the right to watch im@s, I'm not sure what will get anyone going.


*For a quick summary for some of the REALLY fun stuff you can do that you probably shouldn't be able to, try this on for size - 10 guys, hooning with loudspeakers, playing Celine Dion music from the Titanic. Go to any political rally of your choice that you don't like. Then file IP infringement against EVERYONE WHO RECORDS the group, particularly if they're providing a live feed of it. 5 years federal prison and killing off any financial support. **

** And most likely sanity when people hear Titanic over and over again, but on the bright side, losing your sanity over Celine Dion is probably perferable compared to dealing with IP law.
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animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 05:37:09 PM »
But I'm pretty sure NGBI knows about uploads and M@DS.
Especially M@DS which are a main part of the whole culture and following of The iDOLM@STER franchise as a whole.

They even allowed the blue screen/green screen for M@D creators afterall.

So is there something different in Japan than here?
NND has a whole section devoted to videos on the idolm@ster afterall, NGBI has videos uploaded to NND. It would be impossible for them to ignore the existance of the videos.

If they shut down im@s on NND, a large amount of their fanbase (M@D viewers and creators) are going to be enraged and perhaps they might even lose fans.

edit: In terms of the matter as a whole, they wanted to make it so it would be illegal to embed a video that wasn't one's own material within a website.
Which is hilarious because that is my English assignment. Find television clips (that we don't own) and put embed them into our website. How many laws will we be breaking?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 05:42:20 PM by animagic4u »

Setsuna

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 11:06:50 PM »
But I'm pretty sure NGBI knows about uploads and M@DS.
Especially M@DS which are a main part of the whole culture and following of The iDOLM@STER franchise as a whole.

They even allowed the blue screen/green screen for M@D creators afterall.

So is there something different in Japan than here?
NND has a whole section devoted to videos on the idolm@ster afterall, NGBI has videos uploaded to NND. It would be impossible for them to ignore the existance of the videos.

If they shut down im@s on NND, a large amount of their fanbase (M@D viewers and creators) are going to be enraged and perhaps they might even lose fans.

edit: In terms of the matter as a whole, they wanted to make it so it would be illegal to embed a video that wasn't one's own material within a website.
Which is hilarious because that is my English assignment. Find television clips (that we don't own) and put embed them into our website. How many laws will we be breaking?

There's quite a bit, but that's not the point. There's a more or less informal agreement to leave nico (and Comiket) alone for most part, but there's nothing signed on paper.

What matters to the SPOA is that no one in the US complains.

You may very well find that Sony act on it anyway, and nico get their finances cut off ANYWAY, because there's no formal broadcast agreement.

That's one of the real risks, and this is one reason why I'd start caring. A lot.

**To clarify: The SOPA does NOT CARE WHAT INTERNATIONAL LAW SAYS.

It explitly was designed so that US law would apply and compel any actor that has a US base to act against them, regardless of what the national or international law says.

This is why it is so dangerous - It does not matter any longer what Japan formally or informally thinks. Only what the US does.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 11:47:03 PM by Setsuna »
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animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 11:53:44 PM »
Well, if nothing happens to Nico Nico Douga, I don't see how they could narrow down and prove a user wasn't Japanese.
Even if Sony of Japan decides to go against them, in the end, isn't it up to the game developers themselves?

Even if the m@d community were to go down, there would still be underground m@ds...(Or NGBI could be trolls and re-upload m@ds)
I think even America there will still be lots of illegal stuff.

That's just the internet for you.

They can try to get to all of it, but the illegal passing on is just going to keep on going.

Setsuna

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 12:02:21 AM »
Well, if nothing happens to Nico Nico Douga, I don't see how they could narrow down and prove a user wasn't Japanese.
Even if Sony of Japan decides to go against them, in the end, isn't it up to the game developers themselves?

Even if the m@d community were to go down, there would still be underground m@ds...(Or NGBI could be trolls and re-upload m@ds)
I think even America there will still be lots of illegal stuff.

That's just the internet for you.

They can try to get to all of it, but the illegal passing on is just going to keep on going.

I'll emphasise the last note I made - It no longer matters because it is written explictly to make US law surpreme via economic stranglulation. In short? It does not matter if the site is targetted for non US audiences only - they would have to be made dark under the leglislation.

NBGI can relupoad it themselves (but they're only one company, and uh, there's a lot of im@s stuff out there) and they can't assign rights to redistribute without causing very real IP problems for them later on.

Granted, we'll have to underground it, but it means nico cannot carry it. What does that leave us? I'm not entirely sure.
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animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 12:08:40 AM »
It's only a matter of time until someone makes an underground website and then it gets duplicated and duplicated and duplicated.
Then there will be several copies in different locations that can't all go down at once.

It's a bit frustrating though because for a lot of the members here their first encounter with idolm@ster was through m@ds or gameplay footage from youtube or nico nico.
And so much of the whole culture of im@s is about videos...sharing your successful shows, sharing your own creativity, (and now) sharing your pictures.

Hmmm...what is the legality of G4U, btw? After all the intention here is to share your pictures with others, right?

Setsuna

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 12:21:35 AM »
It's only a matter of time until someone makes an underground website and then it gets duplicated and duplicated and duplicated.
Then there will be several copies in different locations that can't all go down at once.

It's a bit frustrating though because for a lot of the members here their first encounter with idolm@ster was through m@ds or gameplay footage from youtube or nico nico.
And so much of the whole culture of im@s is about videos...sharing your successful shows, sharing your own creativity, (and now) sharing your pictures.

Hmmm...what is the legality of G4U, btw? After all the intention here is to share your pictures with others, right?

Not sure. I have to check what explicit rights are granted. Basically, unless the IP owner gives 'explicit' rights for distrubution AND public performance, probably not.

Duplication isn't the problem - a DNS kill does NOT take the computers offline. You'd have to memorise the manual IP address. It would mean there's an 'approved' net and the rest of us.

Fortunately, the fact the US is literally falling apart may work in our favour - it needs to pass the house and the senate, and they're busy... uh, fixing the economy.

But yes, it's nuts in more ways than I can count. But the people who wrote it and thought it out, clearly don't care.
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animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 08:24:08 PM »
So according to what I read earlier today, any website that contains anything "pirated" will be going down even if its user posted.
So the webm@ster webmaster will have to be careful. For this site too!

Neko-P

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 11:11:13 PM »
... this is crazy in so many ways, I can't even begin to count. Read it the right way, and you could shut down the ENTIRE INTERNET. This is just so immensely stupid...

 I will be spreading the word about it, and it will not go unnoticed by the people I know.

animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 11:31:01 PM »
... this is crazy in so many ways, I can't even begin to count. Read it the right way, and you could shut down the ENTIRE INTERNET. This is just so immensely stupid...

 I will be spreading the word about it, and it will not go unnoticed by the people I know.

Exactly! Everyone is spreading the word, my brother just read about it on Equestria Daily.
I don't know if it will pass though...and even if it does, I don't see how things will be much more different. After all, isn't it the owner's job to sue the person? If the owner doesn't care (like in the case of iDOLM@STER or several games) then nothing will happen, right?

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 11:46:35 PM »
I guess that's true, but then again, this is only beginning, and already it's too broad and unfocused, plus it opens the door to OTHER censorship venues, and I'd rather we didn't follow China's example here. It's not a good system, and I can't find anyway to salvage it as-written.

animagic4u

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 12:04:13 AM »
I guess that's true, but then again, this is only beginning, and already it's too broad and unfocused, plus it opens the door to OTHER censorship venues, and I'd rather we didn't follow China's example here. It's not a good system, and I can't find anyway to salvage it as-written.

Well I don't think this is considered censorship...afterall, people have the right to protect their creations and if we want it we should purchase it legally.
If it got to censorship I think it would be unconstitutional. But they always propose these things and never pass or take several tries.

Setsuna

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 12:10:07 AM »
Exactly! Everyone is spreading the word, my brother just read about it on Equestria Daily.
I don't know if it will pass though...and even if it does, I don't see how things will be much more different. After all, isn't it the owner's job to sue the person? If the owner doesn't care (like in the case of iDOLM@STER or several games) then nothing will happen, right?

Well, I've been following it on and off and its variants for years (And it's why I've been busy doing non im@s work for nearly a month) and sadly, it's lost me a couple of friends and a few freelance positions. I could be bitter about how people didn't want to pay attention when it could have been shut down trivally, but a successful block at the last second is better than none at all.

But then again, I'm used to it - I do a lot of analyst work, and you learn people don't care and don't want to be told the truth.

It's also has been tried several times, with a lot of blocks... and one successful attempt - the DCMA, which caused enough problems as it is (but we sort of lived with it now, if only because of the fact that it didn't try to declare US law as the law of this planet)

The biggest problem is the fact that it moves the requirements of prosecution from the IP owner to the government, and makes it a criminal offense. In turn this causes further issues.

The next on the list is mostly the fact that you can make it do almost everything more or less.
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RoninatorMarx

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 12:40:50 PM »
Am I right to believe that this bill is being passed for the money? I mean, I'm sure the senate won't financially benefit if this law passes (or will they?), but assuming that this is an American law and proposed on American ground, I'm pretty sure it's meant to suck some cash out of the people here. I mean, let's face it- no company's gonna give you rights to display their media for free, right? And let's not get to the consequences of that.

But then again, I'm used to it - I do a lot of analyst work, and you learn people don't care and don't want to be told the truth.

Us? If so, I must apologize. Normally, our whimsical nature activates and would not be concerned of things like bills and real life events unless if it's really big or brought into our attention. Also, basing this on the people I see around me, the Americans have high faith that this bill will not pass for obvious reasons.

Setsuna

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Re: The Stop Piracy Online Act and im@s requests/recording.
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 01:27:32 PM »
Am I right to believe that this bill is being passed for the money? I mean, I'm sure the senate won't financially benefit if this law passes (or will they?), but assuming that this is an American law and proposed on American ground, I'm pretty sure it's meant to suck some cash out of the people here. I mean, let's face it- no company's gonna give you rights to display their media for free, right? And let's not get to the consequences of that.

Us? If so, I must apologize. Normally, our whimsical nature activates and would not be concerned of things like bills and real life events unless if it's really big or brought into our attention. Also, basing this on the people I see around me, the Americans have high faith that this bill will not pass for obvious reasons.

It's a... bit more complicated than that - money's a huge part of it, but it's more to do with future control of production, and basically 'future profits and control of those profits' would be a better answer, though even that's not entirely accurate. I could go into a long spiel about copyright, creativity, the product life cycle and a lot of other stuff, but do you want me to give that lecture?

Among other strange oddities, you find that copyright swiping actually was how major countries grew, and how major players of today (Who want to enforce this law) became the players they are now. It makes for... interesting reading.

You're also ignoring how copyright was designed to work, public domain, fair use and a hell of a lot of other stuff (not including the amendments in the United States and the Declaration of Human Rights of the UN). Well, to be fair, I don't think ignore is the correct word, since most people aren't taught this stuff.

For most part, it's explictly targetted OUTSIDE the US, because it's designed (on the face of it) to target entities that aren't actually subject to US law. Basically, the cutoff provisions are designed for entities that can't be reached by arrest. Like say, those in the Netherlands.

It in effect declares economic war on everyone else. I wish I was making hyperbole with that statement, but what else do you call a country declaring economic dominion over everyone else by fiat and enforces it by aggressive unilateral actions?

Speaking about those lovely congress members, they've already benefited quite a bit from the lobbying from the entertainment industry. Part of it is their shareholdings, various donations (You should read the donation declarations from various sponsors of the bill, they're interesting reading.) and other icky bits of politics.

The other problem is one of complatency - I distinctly recall other major initiatives that 'claimed to be defeated' because of popular sentiment and were proclaimed dead because of how hugely unpopular they were. Other remembered examples included the GM bailout, TARP and the DMCA itself.

Forgive me if I don't like those odds. (If you're wondering, all of those had an opposition rate of something in the 90-97% range. Yes, it was that high. TARP in particular was 300:1) Some of the antics were straight out 'I have to salute you for doing something that shouldn't have worked' because even I underestimated just how audacious things can get.

I mean, I thought people didn't like daylight robbery of trillions of dollars at gunpoint, but well... I guess the US was fine with it happening twice in three years. Who would have suspected I'd be wrong? I mean really...

As for my note about how people tend to not want to know about the truth, it's hardly aimed at anyone in particular, and is a general observation (although a bitter one) which I've learnt over the years while being in the field.

You just tend to find that people ignore you for the years prior when you can fix it, then suddenly believe you minutes before it happens.

I can give an example of a friend of mine (who's still my friend by the way) who once told me (and he remembers) how no one gave a damn about the economic events of 2007 when I talked about about the rampant fraud and the like and quite publicly told me off about how no one wanted to hear it.

Funny thing is, if people acted in 2007 (for example) we'd probably wouldn't see the US in the economic mess we're in now. Thing is, he recognises the fact that he should have paid attention, and actually recognised the problem for what it is.

Of course, the actions that were available to fix the issues in 2007 aren't available in 2011 (or at least all of them). That's the nature of letting problems like the ones I've been looking at fester - they're not really a problem until they are, and this is due to the logaramthic nature of them.

I'd note your comment about how people don't pay attention to the world unless they're so massive they're impossible to ignore and/or they get brought to their attention by someone else probably just proves the point: People don't react until it's almost too late (or when it is too late) and they simply don't (and seemingly can't) care about anything outside their own small circles.

And that's the way things are. I accept that as a part of my life, and unfortunately, I must recognise it.

But forgive the optimism - maybe people will change, even if it's too late.
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